"Wife said cute" (danger Will Robinson) (4 Viewers)

[WarDamnEagle]

I have to give BBQBoy props for the A/C he had Trollhole install in my pig. All original interior parts with modern parts under the hood. Looks original inside and cools plenty well. I'm sure some of the Vintage Air type systems probably cool better but I like the "straight out of 1977" interior.

 

[scrapdaddy]

I honestly don’t get the love affair with the dealer installed “Toyota” systems but if that’s a desire to keep a mostly original Pig mostly original then yes spend countless hours tracking down mostly original dealer installed A/C components and over spend for an underperforming system. Yes it will blow cool air when it works and yes it will look period correct so if you’re showing your mostly original pig and going to be judged on originality then sacrifices need to be made. If all you want is A/C to help keep the cab cool on those hot days then just buy a new modern system.

This sums up my feelings very well. Everybody has their own idea on what factory stock means to them and how far they will cross the line in order to improve a 45 year old vehicle.

 

[J Mack]

After re-reading my previous post I apologize if what I wrote came out Dicky, this is a great hobby and we all can and should pursue our own version of the perfect Pig.



Modern A/C systems will do the same work in a smaller package or do more work for a given size if either one of these are important to you then the choice is simple.

Other benefits include better fans that produce higher velocity air that is a real benefit when trying to move air in a pig with only a front mounted unit. An all in one unit will also give you the benefit of better heat and defrosters.



Lot's of under dash systems that are A/C only that still have that “vintage” look.

"Factory"

 

[scrapdaddy]

Hey Grodobe,

When you get ready to gather parts, let me know if you could use this evaporator. I believe it to be a Toyota option. I can pull it down off the shelve to get a better look if need be. I think it's upside down right now.

 

[PabloCruise]

Thanks for all the input



what does the 30% equate as? Less work for the compressor, less load on the engine, colder air or?

Have the right front engine mount with the compressor bracket
Found the correct crank shaft pulley

Now to decide on the a/c components. My gut says make as Toyota would. The rest of the the pig is still original throughout. As long as the front seat area cools down. Although it would be nice to have a second evaporator under the front seat ?

Fair warning, I am not a certified HAVC tech, nor am I a PE ME, however I did geek out on thermodynamics class.

In my simple mind, 30% more efficient would be like cycling your compressor ~1/3 less often to maintain the called for temp vs. the old serpentine condensor. Or it might be like taking your old style serpentine condensor and suddenly increasing size to 130%. I might be thinking about it incorrectly, but that is where I am at...

Second evap under the seat - I think you are running the old original Toyoda compressor that came with your Pig, yes? Or am I thinking of the wrong Pig? You might not have the capacity to run more evaporators - not sure. Another thought about adding evaporators - You want to get that cold air up as high as possible in the cabin. If you just push it out at the floor level you will have a cold floor and all the hot air will stay up near the roof - no bueno. Ideally you push that cold air out at roof level (think of the rear AC vents in the 100/470) and it mixes things up with the hot air in the cabin.

 

[PabloCruise]

It’s a ball park number to compare apples and oranges.



Basically the modern components are smaller and do the same work as their older larger counterparts, for things like condensers this gives you the option of (A) going with a physically smaller parallel flow vs a serpentine due to space restrictions or (B) install an equal size parallel flow to support a higher cooling capacity system.

Again it’s all just a bunch of buzz words and unless you size all of the air conditioning components together it really won’t benefit you much.



I honestly don’t get the love affair with the dealer installed “Toyota” systems but if that’s a desire to keep a mostly original Pig mostly original then yes spend countless hours tracking down mostly original dealer installed A/C components and over spend for an underperforming system. Yes it will blow cool air when it works and yes it will look period correct so if you’re showing your mostly original pig and going to be judged on originality then sacrifices need to be made. If all you want is A/C to help keep the cab cool on those hot days then just buy a new modern system.

Not sure they are just buzz words vs. accurate descriptions/labels of the different designs, although agree that sizing components is going to lead to the ideal set up.

Which leads to the point about sticking with the Toyota systems. In a lot of cases, nothing fits like OEM. Toyota had/has some deep pockets to R&D the specific components that under hood and under dash the best. So when I think about evaporators, I feel like that is probably the biggest evaporator I can fit under the dash w/o completely redesigning the dash and glove box. It may not be the absolute best config for heat transfer, but probably better than no AC. My boy is 13, I want to spend as much time as I can with him out exploring in the Pig vs. completely fabbing new Pig interiors...

I am curious about the dims of the evaporator. The paper I referenced earlier mentioned that outlet area should be 30 to 60% to achieve max pressure drop and heat transfer. That seems like a broad range... https://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1640&context=iracc

 

[J Mack]

Not sure they are just buzz words vs. accurate descriptions/labels of the different designs

Wasn’t my intent to offend.

noun: buzz-word, “ a word or phrase, often an item of jargon, that is fashionable at a particular time or in a particular context.”

An accurate description for a single A/C component used in the context “30% more efficient” is a buzz word without more content.

although agree that sizing components is going to lead to the ideal set up.

That is exactly my point, changing a single component to a “30% more efficient” part may or may not net the desired result in an older A/C system and calculating the net difference of something like a condenser into a % of improvement when paired to an older large diameter tube and fin evaporator is completely different than a study like the one you linked where they are using all modern components.

Which leads to the point about sticking with the Toyota systems. In a lot of cases, nothing fits like OEM. Toyota had/has some deep pockets to R&D the specific components that under hood and under dash the best.

100% agree with you here, if we’re talking about 1976 pig then a Toyota system of the time would most likely be your best option 44 years ago but If the Toyota engineers got it so right 44 years ago you wouldn't be talking about upgrading condensers today, if we’re talking about the modern 2020 Toyota A/C systems then again I would agree they are superior to anything available in the current aftermarket world today.

If we’re talking about the complete A/C system Toyota designed 44 years ago with the current technology of the time verses the current offerings in the aftermarket A/C units today we would need to look at the cost, size, performance and reliability of each to have a meaningful conversation.

I’m not trying to be argumentative TJ and I get typing or reading replies on a web forum can at times be frustrating so I’ll stop sidetracking Gordobe’s cute pig thread and we’ll talk more around the next camp fire.

 

[Gordobe]

A lot to soak in for a 66 year old brain to cool down a 50 year old pig (my 1970 acquisition). I do know that part compatibility is key.

Thanks for all input. In no rush but hope to think out a solution soon.

My boy is 13, I want to spend as much time as I can with him out exploring in the Pig vs. completely fabbing new Pig interiors...

Above is my sentiment exactly. Modifications are a fun adventure. Unfortunately I'm not a scientist so there's something appealing to be said for plug and play.

 

[scrapdaddy]

Something else we didn't touch base about, repairing, restoring and just in general cleaning the old components to where you could use them care free. I wouldn't trust that old evaporator I have sitting on the shelve, at least not before rebuilding it (time and money).

Good information being tossed around on this subject.

 

[J Mack]

hope to think out a solution soon

A fun project for the type a guy willing to toss buckets of cash at a 2F with modern internals would be get the under dash evaporator housing from Scrapdaddy and find a laminated or mini-channel evaporator that could be retrofitted into it, upgrade the electronics with a variable speed brushless DC motor connected to efficient fan, everything else is cookie cutter after that, Thermal Expansion Valve, Compressor, Parallel flow Condenser, Filter/Dryer and a few lines & electrical components , set it up to run “environmentally friendly” refrigerant, R-134a and have the best of all worlds. Something that looks old but works like the new modern stuff with all the efficiency and reliability needed to freeze nuts on those long drives.

Something else we didn't touch base about, repairing, restoring and just in general cleaning the old components to where you could use them care free. I wouldn't trust that old evaporator I have sitting on the shelve, at least not before rebuilding it (time and money).

Used evaporators can and should be flushed with a compatible detergent and are known to corrode from the outside in from debris sitting on them combined with the condensation so a good visual inspection should be done but after that if you’re into restoring one it should be good to go. I would at a minimum if I bought a use A/C system replace the thermal expansion valve, compressor, Filter/Dryer, all the lines and all electrical components like switches, plugs and relays.

I would expect it to work just as well as it did 40 plus years ago and be just as reliable. Like you said it's just time and money!

 

[Gordobe]

so on an existing pig ac system, can one replace the existing serpentine condenser with a parallel type with the same dimensions and have it improve the performance???

 

[WarDamnEagle]

so on an existing pig ac system, can one replace the existing serpentine condenser with a parallel type with the same dimensions and have it improve the performance???

No expert but I would say possibly. It depends on whether or not the condenser was the limiting component in the system.

 

[J Mack]

so on an existing pig ac system, can one replace the existing serpentine condenser with a parallel type with the same dimensions and have it improve the performance???

My .02
Assuming the Toyota engineers sized all the components to work together correctly to begin with, your stock condenser should adequately remove all the heat your stock evaporator generates.

Think of it like this, if you’re running a stock 2F engine doing stock 2F engine things and not having any type of overheating issues then adding a larger radiator for the sake of a performance gain is a silly concept.

If you boost the HP of the engine then it would make perfect sense to upgrade the radiator to remove the added heat the extra HP will generate.

If you have a small tube and fin evaporator running R12 at the lower pressures in a stock A/C system the benefits of adding a more efficient larger radiator “condenser” would be negligible, smart money would just buy something easy that’s known to fit and work and drive on.

If you start changing the evaporator to something more efficient at removing the heat in your cab and is going to be dumping all that extra heat out to the condenser and or going to a different refrigerant like R134a (higher operating pressure) given the small snout of a pig then yes looking for the most efficient condenser to fit within your space constraints would be worthwhile.

 

[PabloCruise]

After re-reading my previous post I apologize if what I wrote came out Dicky, this is a great hobby and we all can and should pursue our own version of the perfect Pig.



Modern A/C systems will do the same work in a smaller package or do more work for a given size if either one of these are important to you then the choice is simple.

Other benefits include better fans that produce higher velocity air that is a real benefit when trying to move air in a pig with only a front mounted unit. An all in one unit will also give you the benefit of better heat and defrosters.



Lot's of under dash systems that are A/C only that still have that “vintage” look.

"Factory"

I didn't think what you wrote was intended to be "dicky", lots of good points.

 

[PabloCruise]

Wasn’t my intent to offend.

noun: buzz-word, “ a word or phrase, often an item of jargon, that is fashionable at a particular time or in a particular context.”

An accurate description for a single A/C component used in the context “30% more efficient” is a buzz word without more content.







That is exactly my point, changing a single component to a “30% more efficient” part may or may not net the desired result in an older A/C system and calculating the net difference of something like a condenser into a % of improvement when paired to an older large diameter tube and fin evaporator is completely different than a study like the one you linked where they are using all modern components.





100% agree with you here, if we’re talking about 1976 pig then a Toyota system of the time would most likely be your best option 44 years ago but If the Toyota engineers got it so right 44 years ago you wouldn't be talking about upgrading condensers today, if we’re talking about the modern 2020 Toyota A/C systems then again I would agree they are superior to anything available in the current aftermarket world today.

If we’re talking about the complete A/C system Toyota designed 44 years ago with the current technology of the time verses the current offerings in the aftermarket A/C units today we would need to look at the cost, size, performance and reliability of each to have a meaningful conversation.

I’m not trying to be argumentative TJ and I get typing or reading replies on a web forum can at times be frustrating so I’ll stop sidetracking Gordobe’s cute pig thread and we’ll talk more around the next camp fire.

Ah, you were taking issue with the "30%" as buzz words, my mistake. I thought you were taking issue with "parallel flow" as buzz words.

One of our biggest competitors likes to take technical descriptors and co-opt them to make the customer think they are the only ones that have said technology. One of our products uses impedance technology, and the competitor says their product has "Laminar flow impedance". Laminar flow is just a condition of fluid dynamics, and all impedance flow cells use it. I get creased when they do that, but that is how they want to win. So, not exactly buzz-word shenanigans, but perhaps the Marketing folks taking what R&D says and running with it.

I think it would be pretty easy to quantify the difference in performance of parallel flow vs. tube and fin. If you compared the same size area of condensors, and held the other components constant (same compressor/evaporator/expansion valve, etc), you could measure the pressure drop across the condensors, and thus pronounce one technology as x% more efficient. We are accomplishing the heat exchange by a change of phase of the refrigerant - liquid to vapor, or vapor to liquid. The bigger the pressure drop across inlet vs. outlet would equate to more mass of refrigerant being converted from one phase to another. Easy-peasy!

I am not in any way claiming that is what the folks on the website did, but I am guessing there are some rules of thumb about parallel flow efficiency.

I don't take your comments as argumentative, it is pretty fun to talk about these ideas and imagine how they could actually fit into our Pigs in one form or another. I always enjoy looking at the dashboard for the HVAC system at work. It takes a lot of pieces to keep people at ~72 degrees F.

As for your campfire idea - I like it!

 

[PabloCruise]

Something else we didn't touch base about, repairing, restoring and just in general cleaning the old components to where you could use them care free. I wouldn't trust that old evaporator I have sitting on the shelve, at least not before rebuilding it (time and money).

Good information being tossed around on this subject.

Excellent point, I would certainly want to clean the old evaporator (inside and out), and then pull a vacuum on the system for an hour or so before going any further.

 

[PabloCruise]

so on an existing pig ac system, can one replace the existing serpentine condenser with a parallel type with the same dimensions and have it improve the performance???

That should be the case. Your system volume may differ from the original system, but they should be able to charge the system based on pressure readings off the service ports. You may end up with a different size drier as well.

My system will be a combo of 3FE compressor, 55 evaporator and generic condensor, so there will be no spec listed anywhere for my final configuration.

 

[OldBeachBob]

There were no "factory" AC units in the 55s. All AC units (not installed by dealers) were Nippon Denso installed at the US ports of entry (PIOs)

 

[J Mack]

All AC units (not installed by dealers) were Nippon Denso installed at the US ports of entry (PIOs)

Again why I say I don't get the love affair with these units among the 55 guys.
I see units being sold for big money that honestly needed to be thrown in the trash. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[OldBeachBob]

The first unit was used up to about 1974 the second from then until ? Both are Nippon Denso units. I'm hoping to get modern underhood 'stuff' installed this spring - then will look "factory" inside, however be more efficient so the will be more comfortable.