Why not a used diesel engine? (1 Viewer)

[FlowState]

Let me clarify (didn't want a massive title): I'm asking why every time I see someone swapping in a non-toyo diesel engine, it's brand new?

I just did a quick search on Craigslist, and found a half a dozen crashed dodges and chevys with engines with < 150k miles for < $2000.

If the assumption is that diesel engines last longer (depending on PO maintenance), and are simple to work on, why isn't this option explored more option.

Now, I certainly could just be missing the swaps that have been done with engines like that, or there could be completely sound reasons for not doing it. Please enlighten me if that's the case.

If I want to do a diesel swap with a budget (wrenching myself), are there downsides to grabbing a used Cummins, doing the rebuild, then doing the swap?

 

[FlowState]

crap! Why can't I edit!?!?

I don't mean "brand new", I mean new enough to be nearly pristine, and cost prohibitive on, say, a $5k budget.

 

[boots4]

Funny, I see the opposite meaning most diesel swaps that are non-toy are used older engines with some miles on them. That's how mine was, and I ended up doing a rebuild. That's how a buddy putting an isuzu is as well, used with some miles. If you find a decent diesel for a good price go for it. Typically with all the other stuff depending on what diesel you decide to run, cheap is not usually the case. It doesn't have to be crazy expensive and on rare occasions if you are good at dealing and take your time you can get great prices on stuff. It also depends on what other stuff you're planning on doing to the rig "since you're in there". If you are going to spend any time on the hwy an Overdrive whether auto or manual is really needed. Gearing plays a different role for a diesel swap than it does in a gasser. Some areas of the country are easier to find deals as well. Lots of variables.

 

[Kurtis]

I guess the reason people rebuild is if your doing a diesel swap you probably aren't on to tight of a budget. Its not going to be cheep and if your spending that kind of money might as well have everything new.
The problem isn't the engine with diesels its everything else. Injectors injection pump, turbo, accessories etc. By the time you go through all that the rebuild isn't much more.

The diesels last longer is kinda subjective to your wallet. A diesel will run a long time but a diesel in a pickup that is driven like a passenger vehicle, not an over the road semi will need expensive maintenance to go that distance. For example a 2500 chevy gasser will go 300k with nothing more than plugs oil/ filter changes a water pump and fuel pump changed once. I have not been around a duramax that made it to 300k without some type if injector work (in the thousands). On the flip side I've seen duramax trucks make it to 500k but there was a few thousand in additional maintenance along the way out side of regular maintenance.

So basically if you have a lot of money a diesel will last a very long time.
But your cost per mile is defiantly higher than its gas counterpart which is unfortunate because I like diesel better.

 

[FlowState]

Thanks for the quick replies!

boots: well, I guess that I DID just miss/misread the swap threads then. Egg on my face.

Kurtis: That's a great answer. I wasn't looking at it that way. So the cheapest route would be if you could find an entire diesel drivetrain you wanted, with a tranny that works, and could grab it all.

Thanks again, helpful responses.

 

[Kynot62]

Cummins 6BT's are too big for a wagon by the way, besides they make a racket. Its not that is may not fit but it is overkill in a 60. The 4BT is also loud but it is much more size appropriate to a wagon. Better mileage as well.

Don't forget about Toyota diesels, they are bolt ins that don't require any mods to your existing drivetrain depending on the model diesel you use.

Tony

 

[FlowState]

the only issue with the toyo diesels is availability. I'm in Texas.... Canada is a bit of a trip. I'd love a 12HT though, God would I love one of those.

Dammit, now I'm drooling.

 

[Heckraiser]

As with any swap, the idea is to hunt for a good deal. Whether that means low mileage, good records and a hefty price tag, or a clapped-out, beat up motor and the time and parts to rebuild, that's just a balance you need to find. The determining factor is almost always the person behind the wallet (or his significant other).

Diesel swaps are more common than you think. If/when I go that route, I'm leaning towards an Isuzu 4bd1t because that seems to be the most available in my area (aside from a 6bt, which seems a bit overkill for my purposes).

 

[FlowState]

Yeah, I basically have all the time in the world... I work from home, and have some expendable income. Most importantly, I want to feel like I built every bit of this thing that I could, limited only by tools.

So yeah, I'm likely going to pick up a used drivetrain that's a little old, and rebuild it bit by bit. Now, this may change if I make the 62 my daily driver and then the 3F or A440 up and dies (knocking on wood).

Here's a question that's interesting me: worst case scenario, you have an engine that fits, but nothing else natually mates up. Other than the mounts / balancing, can I get every part I need off of a complete drivetrain in the donor car?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around what I'd need if I found a complete donor. Sry for noobiness.

 

[FL cruiser]

Since you have more time than money, If you can hear it run, and the blow-by isn't bad, install new seals, gaskets and water pump and put it in.

State and county utility vehicles many times have low mileage and can be purchased cheap or at auction.

 

[Dirtgypsy]

Let me clarify (didn't want a massive title): I'm asking why every time I see someone swapping in a non-toyo diesel engine, it's brand new?

I just did a quick search on Craigslist, and found a half a dozen crashed dodges and chevys with engines with < 150k miles for < $2000.

If the assumption is that diesel engines last longer (depending on PO maintenance), and are simple to work on, why isn't this option explored more option.

Now, I certainly could just be missing the swaps that have been done with engines like that, or there could be completely sound reasons for not doing it. Please enlighten me if that's the case.

If I want to do a diesel swap with a budget (wrenching myself), are there downsides to grabbing a used Cummins, doing the rebuild, then doing the swap?

The 2k for the engine is just the start. Like boots said the gearing is the second biggest cost in dealing with a diesel. Every person who has done a diesel swap that ends up selling the converted truck complains about 2 things: noise and gearing. You absolutely have to factor in the cost of a tranny and or gears/ tires into the cost. 5k for a swap if you have nothing else in place is just the start.

Funny, I see the opposite meaning most diesel swaps that are non-toy are used older engines with some miles on them. That's how mine was, and I ended up doing a rebuild. That's how a buddy putting an isuzu is as well, used with some miles. If you find a decent diesel for a good price go for it. Typically with all the other stuff depending on what diesel you decide to run, cheap is not usually the case. It doesn't have to be crazy expensive and on rare occasions if you are good at dealing and take your time you can get great prices on stuff. It also depends on what other stuff you're planning on doing to the rig "since you're in there". If you are going to spend any time on the hwy an Overdrive whether auto or manual is really needed. Gearing plays a different role for a diesel swap than it does in a gasser. Some areas of the country are easier to find deals as well. Lots of variables.

I see a non toy diesel as a better option (I am biased as I am the one with the Isuzu swap) because of initial investment, total build costs and parts availability. My isuzu dealer in Portland (40 min drive) is open till midnight 6 days a week and they have, so far, always had the parts on the shelf I needed even for an engine built in 1989.

I guess the reason people rebuild is if your doing a diesel swap you probably aren't on to tight of a budget. Its not going to be cheep and if your spending that kind of money might as well have everything new.
The problem isn't the engine with diesels its everything else. Injectors injection pump, turbo, accessories etc. By the time you go through all that the rebuild isn't much more.

The diesels last longer is kinda subjective to your wallet. A diesel will run a long time but a diesel in a pickup that is driven like a passenger vehicle, not an over the road semi will need expensive maintenance to go that distance. For example a 2500 chevy gasser will go 300k with nothing more than plugs oil/ filter changes a water pump and fuel pump changed once. I have not been around a duramax that made it to 300k without some type if injector work (in the thousands). On the flip side I've seen duramax trucks make it to 500k but there was a few thousand in additional maintenance along the way out side of regular maintenance.

So basically if you have a lot of money a diesel will last a very long time.
But your cost per mile is defiantly higher than its gas counterpart which is unfortunate because I like diesel better.

I agree and disagree with this. I am part of our fleet maintenance team and have yet to touch an injector/ injector pump/ glow system on any of our rigs. We drive the crap out of them. The worst we have done is a turbo and intake build on one. We have 150k plus miles on rigs 3 years old and less but in its defense its a crap 6.0 ford. It's easily double that if you factor in the 1/2 hour to 8 hours of idleing they will do on scene. While these are going strong we have done two head gaskets plus tune ups and injectors water pums and a fuel pump on GM Vortecs and Ford Tritons. Plus the gassers go maybe 3k between oil changes while we normally get the equivellent of 12k plus on the diesels.

Thanks for the quick replies!

boots: well, I guess that I DID just miss/misread the swap threads then. Egg on my face.

Kurtis: That's a great answer. I wasn't looking at it that way. So the cheapest route would be if you could find an entire diesel drivetrain you wanted, with a tranny that works, and could grab it all.

Thanks again, helpful responses.

Grab the whole rig not just the drivetrain.

the only issue with the toyo diesels is availability. I'm in Texas.... Canada is a bit of a trip. I'd love a 12HT though, God would I love one of those.

Dammit, now I'm drooling.

Cummins 6BT's are too big for a wagon by the way, besides they make a racket. Its not that is may not fit but it is overkill in a 60. The 4BT is also loud but it is much more size appropriate to a wagon. Better mileage as well.

Don't forget about Toyota diesels, they are bolt ins that don't require any mods to your existing drivetrain depending on the model diesel you use.

Tony

I disagree I think a 6BT in a wagon would be sweet. Check out Rastaforte's build. Very nice truck. I also disagree with Toyota Diesels being a drop in. Nothing from a Diesel is a drop in a gasser chassis. Motor mounts, radiators and transmission input shafts with have to be changed in order to work. Keep in mind the newer and more common Toyota diesels were never offered in a 60 series wagon and therefor offer an even more fabricating issue. Why spend the extra money on a Toyota if you still have to fab everything anyways?

As with any swap, the idea is to hunt for a good deal. Whether that means low mileage, good records and a hefty price tag, or a clapped-out, beat up motor and the time and parts to rebuild, that's just a balance you need to find. The determining factor is almost always the person behind the wallet (or his significant other).

Diesel swaps are more common than you think. If/when I go that route, I'm leaning towards an Isuzu 4bd1t because that seems to be the most available in my area (aside from a 6bt, which seems a bit overkill for my purposes).

I like this statement. Patience and persistance with go a long way if you are doing the build yourself. The 4BD1T made more sense to me and has so far required less effort to put in than a Vortec or 4BTA.

Since you have more time than money, If you can hear it run, and the blow-by isn't bad, install new seals, gaskets and water pump and put it in.

State and county utility vehicles many times have low mileage and can be purchased cheap or at auction.

Another good advice is just what he said. Freshen up the engine and run it. On the flip side with county utility vehicles is that although they may have low miles they usually have lots of hours of idle time but usually with great routine and preventative maintenance programs.

Make a list of what you want done with the truck in the long run and start planning. You can swap in the Toyota H55F inplace of your auto for less than 2k if you have the patience and the means to buy items as they come available. I did a swap on my brother-in-laws rig in 3 days. He did the pedal swap in one day and we pulled the auto and had the 5 speed in with all the fab work in the following 2 days. An H55F will give you some good options if you decide to go with Toyota or aftermarket 4BD1T or 4BTA swap.

Clint

 

[FlowState]

Wow, DirtyGypsy. Just wow. Your post is rife with tasty advice. Thanks for taking the time to respond, and helping to put to rest a lot of the questions I had. A lot of it boils down to the fact that I'm really unfamiliar with diesels.

This has become the first chapter in my diesel swap bible. Thanks again, sir.

 

[Kynot62]

I stand by my original statement that Toyota diesels are a bolt in swap. Depends on the model like I said. Tranny input shafts do not need to be changed. The only one that is different is the 3B which requires a specific tranny that has the input shaft to match.

2H and 12HT's are a direct bolt in to a manual transmission that is already in a 60. They use the same tranny as the gas models. Auto tranny is different due to Rpm's of the respective engines.

Engine mounts are also 3B specific but I think others may use the same mounts on the frame as a 2F and 3FE. Tranny mounts are the same for diesel or gas models, driveshafts are the same as well.

There is very little to fabricate on a Toyota to Toyota swap. I only had to cut the engine mounts off the frame and move them to the other frame. Everything else is bolt on.

And all I can say about a Cummins 6BT is noise. No complaints about the engine but just sit and listen to one idle and you may be sorry on the trail. My 3B is noisy but all I had to do was listen to a 4BT and mine seems quiet to me....

Parts availability may be better on some of the other engines but I like the fact my rig is all Toyota.

Tony

 

[Dirtgypsy]

I absolutely agree with Tony in that there are certain options of Toyota Diesels that are drop in. I have seen his truck and seen many pics of it on the same trails I have run and its a great truck. Here is another view and just mine. Not to start a flame war as diesels have been discussed over and over again especially in the diesel section.

One: a 3b has no place in a 60 series. anemic engines and the 60s are just too big. A 13BT is marginal but good for daily driving 6 psi boost and 30" tires with a 5 speed. This combo can be put into a 60 series gasser frame without many mods but not a 62 frame without modding drivelines motor mounts and engine mounts pedal assemblies etc.. 3B's like turbos but try to start pushing them to 20 psi and see how long the head gasket last. Drive one for any length of time and you will want more.

Two: yes a 2h with bolt to a h41/42/55F but why would you if you had other options/ Sorry but they are turds until you spend $$ on turbos. Plus the age/ mileage and costs of rebuilds are to me just way too much to justify. Parts are easier to come by as they were offered as engines in fork lifts.

Three: 12ht is absolutley sweet and was an option in a 62 frame (HJ61) but unobtanium read $$$$. They take 20 psi boost no problems but unless you have lots of disposable income hard to come by and from the reads on the board getting harder to get parts for.

Four: 1HZ 1HD-T new tech but spendy.

I have spread my build over 3 years and have collected parts and upgrades as I have gone along with 3 power plants in mind while doing the mods. First was 4BTA, second was 6BTA and third was 4BD1T (I also had Vortec for a while but it was just crazy talk). If I had 8 to 12k to spend on a Diesel all at once then sure it may have opened some more options and doors but I still don't think I would have done a Toyota.

Just my 2 cents and please don't take anything personal.

Clint

 

[Kurtis]

Just my opinion on the diesel thing, you really need to ride in one to see if its your thing.

Its really a niche thing in the U.S. where are diesel options are so limited sadly, some people love them, they get great mileage and have excellent low end torque for off roading. With the better mileage comes better range which is a huge plus if your into long trips.

On the other hand, they are loud and shake like mad. Unless you drive it like 500k miles it will never save you money. The izuzu is a turd ( almost identical power output to a 2f) but cheap and has a little potential for power gains, the 4bt is more money a bit better and has much more potential but still kind of a turd stock and pretty loud.

If I was going to do one it would be 12ht or 4bt. I didn't have the time to get a diesel swap right so I went with a fi v8 and auto since all I really wanted was more power and be able to cruiser at 85mph. 3k and it was done. It drives like a much newer vehicle took 5 weeks, most of which was waiting for my adapter.

 

[doug720]

The izuzu is a turd ( almost identical power output to a 2f) but cheap and has a little potential for power gains

WOW!

Have you driven a 60 with the Isuzu 4BD1/2 swap? I can only speak directly about mine with a 4BD2tc, but have read about many others on mud and 4BTswappers, and it appears all are quite happy with the engine.

IMHO, the performance is way better than with my old, but very good running 2f. I can go the entire "Grapevine"/Hwy 5 here in SoCal in 5th gear at 70MPH...something the 2f could never do, in fact it reguired a downshift to 3rd in one place.

I'm getting over 20MPG with a roof rack and driving hills, about twice the 2f mileage. This is with the stock 3:70's and H55. Not too bad.

The engine is very smooth, not quite 2f smooth, but not bad at all. The engine is quiet also, not much more than my 2f when moving and I did not do any sound insulation either.

As to Isuzu performance mods, you should check out the the Isuzu section of 4BTswappers. There are some incredible 4bd's out there. Mine is dead stock and I can't complain. Parts are readily available and reasonably priced.

I found my Isuzu engine as a 1/2 cut for $1,000.00 and did my swap for around $3,000.00 total with me doing all the work. Check my swap in the link below my sig.

Take a look at the Isuzu before you make a final decision.

Doug

 

[arturo7]

So what do you guys think of the OM617?

 

[FL cruiser]

Unless you drive it like 500k miles it will never save you money

Agree,most people will never drive their vehicle enough to where the savings will offset the cost of a diesel conversion. Of course you can rationalize and manipulate figures to talk yourself into it

The izuzu is a turd ( almost identical power output to a 2f) but cheap and has a little potential for power gains

I'll have to agree with everything Doug said. I've ridden in a 4BD1T powered buggy running 40lbs boost and twisting 4500 RPM's. It was impressive. Even a Chevy small block freak would be impressed.

So what do you guys think of the OM617?

Awesome. Just not enough torque for a heavy 60.
It would probably be awesome in a mini or 40 with moderate sized tires.

 

[Kurtis]

Fl Cruiser, which do you like better your 6.2 or your 4bd2t? The only diesel that really temps me would be a gone through 6.5 turbo diesel. They are dirt cheap, would easily fit where my small block is, bolt up to my trans get decent mileage and make some decent power. They had some issues but are pretty easy to take care of and don't seem to rumble as bad as a comparable 6bt.

 

[FL cruiser]

I somewhat favor the Isuzu. It’s mostly a nostalgic thing. I grew up around old school Toyota diesels and first vehicles were too. The Isuzu has that sound and feel. Maybe it’s not a characteristic favored by some, but I like it.

Performance wise they are close. The Isuzu gets better MPG in town.
Reliability wise the Isuzu has the potential to be around allot longer. I have no complaints with the 6.2 though. I purchased it used, paid almost nothing for it, put it in and have driven it ten years and it now has over 230K miles on it with minimal issues and still runs strong.

Can’t get too involved comparing the two, since they are such different animals.