Why even bother with the hook?

[peteinjp]

The shackle is much stronger and I always hook to a shackle anyway. Is there any reason why i shouldn't just run my shackle pin right thru the eye of the rope with some spacers to center the cable on the shackle pin and ditch the hook altogether?


Pete

 

[Dell]

...Abrasion

a thimble in the eye of the rope is better






I like my self-locking sling/safety hook...
easier then dealing with D-rings for every hook up

 

[badlander]

Peteinjp, I think that's a good question; I've been wondering the same thing. With or without a thimbal in the rope loop, a shackle pin is much larger in diameter than any hook eye (hole) and will reduce stress on the rope due to the larger bend radius providing an added safety margin.
Personnally, I think I will use a shackle whenever I can, rather than the hook - unless someone comes up with a good reason not too in this thread.
cp

 

[peteinjp]

I think the standard thimble that I have will clear my 3/4" shackle. The question first came to me when looking at the thimbles that people pay more than $100 bucks (like the second pic above) for which simply connect the rope to a D ring. Those are basically a pin -just like the pin on the d-ring, thru the eye of the cable. Seems redundant.

 

[badlander]

Yeah,
And how strong do you think that 3/8 diameter cleves pin on the hook is (if your hook happens to have a clevis pin like mine does) compared to a 3/4 of 7/8 diameter shackle pin? I think the pins on the safety hooks are only about 3/8 dia. also, although I have not seen one close up. Maybe Dell knows?

 

[Cruiserdrew]

I run a shackle directly on the end of the wire rope. It works just great. As was mentioned, the bend radius is much less.

 

[landyNZ]

I have a snig chain on the end of mine. Works well and I can always stick a shackle on it if I need to.

 

[Dell]

the primary reason to have a thimble at the eye of a steel cable...
is because cable can kink... and if it does it could weaken that eye.

synthetic rope does not have the same attributes
and so kinking at the eye would less likely occur...
as long as the pin is of a reasonable diameter.

I still think if d-rings are going to be used...
that the inner eye of the rope should be protected if possible
from the d-ring's pin swiveling inside of that.

In a perfect straight pull... that never changes angles...
wear to the eye of the rope would likely be minimal.
tho' over time... minimal adds up.

I'd suppose... as long as ya don't mind re-splicing the eye on occasion...
One could likely run synthetic without using a thimble at the loop
as long as the pin it mounts to is of a reasonable diameter.

 

[1911]

Might be a small detail, but a safety thimble stores on the fairlead more simply than a hook also. I use d-ring shackles to rig up nearly everything anyway.

 

[e9999]

Whether it's best to have a hook or not would depend on what you attach the rope to, I suppose, but I would not use a rope loop directly to a regular D-ring without a thimble to protect the loop on the inside. OTOH, I do have some D-rings that have a spinning roller on the pin (V-shaped to help with centering). You could improvise one with a short piece of round tubing, that would already help some.

 

[peteinjp]

I'll give it a shot. I should have stated that I plan to use the thimble in the eye. As pointed out by 1911 these safety thimbles do look nice and neat. Part of my confusion is due to my ignorance as I first saw the factor 55 prolink and could not for the life of me figure out what advantage there was to be had by having one between my wire rope and my shackle. In fact the pin in the prolink is smaller diameter than the one on my shackle.

The safety thimbles such as Viking do seem to make sense in terms of keeping the synthetic rope in good condition. I'm using wire rope at this time.

Pete

 

[yoopercharged]

I have one of the safety thimbles from viking and they work very nice. A couple of the advantages are that they are very lightweight, they can't get sucked through the fairlead (either a hawse or roller), and it protects the rope against abrasion at the radius and splice. I don't think I paid more than $40 or $45 for mine.

 

[Mace]

I'd suppose... as long as ya don't mind re-splicing the eye on occasion...
One could likely run synthetic without using a thimble at the loop
as long as the pin it mounts to is of a reasonable diameter.

Been running my 40's synthetic line for a long time without a thimble at the loop. I never had any problems.

There is a piece of 1" nylon tubing in the loop as a wear guard.

99% of the people with winches dontt use them enough to cause any issue.

 

[Southeast Overland]

Thimbles help to maintain the correct bend radius at the end of a winch line and also help with abrasion.

Some heavy duty webbing can function to protect the line, just make sure not to use a thimble that is too small, make sure your shackle pin doesn't twist on the synthetic line too much, and such that extra abrasion doesn't occur. I still prefer a thimble for a little extra safety margin.

Multiply the width of your winch line by 4 (for Amsteel Blue, Dyneema SK 75). So 3/8" x 4 = 1.5 inches. The bend radius in your thimble or shackle pin should be no less than 1.5".

The formula may vary for different types of synthetic line.

Synthetic line can be bent pretty harshly and still function but it is happiest when pulled in a straight line. The splice and any bend, kink, etc can introduce a weak point, so keeping that 4:1 with Amsteel Blue will keep your line's strength from being degraded severely.

I run a tube thimble and then a hook. The tube thimble protects the line and the hook makes a quick attachment point to hook to a tree strap, etc. Nothing wrong though with just running a thimble and then a proper shackle.

 

[Mace]

Thimbles help to maintain the correct bend radius at the end of a winch line and also help with abrasion.

Some heavy duty webbing can function to protect the line, just make sure not to use a thimble that is too small, make sure your shackle pin doesn't twist on the synthetic line too much, and such that extra abrasion doesn't occur. I still prefer a thimble for a little extra safety margin.

Multiply the width of your winch line by 4 (for Amsteel Blue, Dyneema SK 75). So 3/8" x 4 = 1.5 inches. The bend radius in your thimble or shackle pin should be no less than 1.5".

The formula may vary for different types of synthetic line.

Synthetic line can be bent pretty harshly and still function but it is happiest when pulled in a straight line. The splice and any bend, kink, etc can introduce a weak point, so keeping that 4:1 with Amsteel Blue will keep your line's strength from being degraded severely.

I run a tube thimble and then a hook. The tube thimble protects the line and the hook makes a quick attachment point to hook to a tree strap, etc. Nothing wrong though with just running a thimble and then a proper shackle.

How does this relate to the soft shackles then?
https://forum.ih8mud.com/vendor-marketplace/596333-southeast-overland-soft-shackles.html

 

[opie74]

How does this relate to the soft shackles then?
https://forum.ih8mud.com/vendor-marketplace/596333-southeast-overland-soft-shackles.html

Unlike a winch line which is usually rated at the minimum strength of the line, the shackle has several things going for it. The most important is the division of the load onto it. This essentially allows the producer to put a WLL on it and as such most will not ever reach the tensile point of the shackle. Any severe bends or other degradation points will be absorbed by the shackle due to its higher tensile rating over say the same diameter line, but in a single line application. This is not to suggest that severe bends and sharp edges do not play into the effective use, just that there is more wiggle room.

While I sternly recommend against it due to synthetic lines inability to absorb dynamic loading, I have had customers who purchased shackles for use solely with a kinetic rope or snatch strap. They did this to eliminate any steel connections in the set-up and I still have not heard of one breaking. I do know they have been used and used hard. I sent 24 of them to a customer in Dubai who runs an outfitter and he is still tickled pink that they function so well. He still has not had one fail. They really are very useful.

 

[Mace]

Unlike a winch line which is usually rated at the minimum strength of the line, the shackle has several things going for it. The most important is the division of the load onto it. This essentially allows the producer to put a WLL on it and as such most will not ever reach the tensile point of the shackle.

These soft shackles are made out of winchline, and are loops. So division of load is identical. The WLL is not arbitrary, it is defined by the material used. Which is identical to the winchline..

Any severe bends or other degradation points will be absorbed by the shackle due to its higher tensile rating over say the same diameter line, but in a single line application. This is not to suggest that severe bends and sharp edges do not play into the effective use, just that there is more wiggle room.

What fundamentally changes a 3/8" winchline to make it stronger in a shackle configuration?

While I sternly recommend against it due to synthetic lines inability to absorb dynamic loading, I have had customers who purchased shackles for use solely with a kinetic rope or snatch strap. They did this to eliminate any steel connections in the set-up and I still have not heard of one breaking. I do know they have been used and used hard. I sent 24 of them to a customer in Dubai who runs an outfitter and he is still tickled pink that they function so well. He still has not had one fail. They really are very useful.

Honestly, I think the soft shackles are great. I have been told I am "going to die" for not using a thimble on the end of my winch-line. And honestly, at this point, I believe it is more of a "cause I read it on the interweb" than anything else...

A loop in the winch-line is a loop in the winch-line no matter what terminology you use to describe it.

 

[peteinjp]

But if i am correct the soft shackles are not just a loop (which would divide the load across 2 lines) but actually since they are woven thru and then doubled its actually a double loop which would make the WLL significantly higher than the winch line provided the knot is not a major strain point.

Interesting piece of tackle.

Pete

 

[opie74]

These soft shackles are made out of winchline, and are loops. So division of load is identical. The WLL is not arbitrary, it is defined by the material used. Which is identical to the winchline..

When you set up a line with 2 legs, each leg carries half the total load. Example, a 3/8 line rated at minimum of 17,600 set up using a block can be loaded up to 34,000 if you take into account your attachment points and the load they can carry. The shackle works on the same principle but you have to factor in the derate of whatever stopper knot is being used. Thats why they are not twice as strong as a single line of the same diameter material being used. Each type of stopper knot is different in what it does to the line inside the knot.

What fundamentally changes a 3/8" winchline to make it stronger in a shackle configuration?

2 legs instead of one.

Honestly, I think the soft shackles are great. I have been told I am "going to die" for not using a thimble on the end of my winch-line. And honestly, at this point, I believe it is more of a "cause I read it on the interweb" than anything else...

You'll be fine without a thimble as long as you pay attention to bend radius and abrasion. Most of the shackles used in the offroad industry use pins of a sufficient radius that a thimble is not necessary. Where you would have an issue would be a rope on rope situation.

A loop in the winch-line is a loop in the winch-line no matter what terminology you use to describe it.

An eye in a line terminates back into a single line. Which is why normally when a line breaks, it breaks somewhere in the working part of the line, not the eye. The eye falls under the same principle of having 2 legs to halve the load.

 

[opie74]

But if i am correct the soft shackles are not just a loop (which would divide the load across 2 lines) but actually since they are woven thru and then doubled its actually a double loop which would make the WLL significantly higher than the winch line provided the knot is not a major strain point.

Interesting piece of tackle.

Pete

Theoretically you are correct. 2 issues come into play with the soft shackle.

First is obviously the knot as you mention. It is the weak point, it is where the degradation in the shackle originates from. If you take a section of synthetic line and end for end splice it back into itself making a closed loop, it will double its single line rating. Ive built and tested this extensively and every failure was just above double the single line tensile point across several diameters of line.

Second is loading the inner braid and outer braid equally is not guaranteed. This essentially means we can not count on a 4x strength number and since the knot would never support 4x, its a moot point. There is a different style of soft shackle where one can load the 4 lines equally, but again the knot dictates the strength of the piece.