Which Toyota Diesel?

Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
1,001
I know it has been covered in many threads and Yes, I have used the "search" function. I am curious to know what you guys think.

I am building my own version of a Troopie. My truck started life as a 1966 SWB FJ45 pickup. One of the previous owners rolled the truck, fortunately w/out the bed on it.

The cab and front end was scrapped and replaced with parts from a 1978 FJ40. The tub and front of the original 45 bed will be blended together to make a one piece tub. A hard top will be fabricated using two FJ40 tops.

Currently it is SOA with FJ62 axles. It also has the 3FE and power steering from the same FJ62 that the axles came from. It has a 4 speed manual from a FJ60 and a split T-case. It is nowhere near running and the motor/tranny is just mounted in the truck, not wired.

I am looking at scrapping the 3FE/4 speed and going diesel. I am very pleased with my Cummins 4BT powered FJ60, but I am thinking of going with a Toyota diesel for the Troopie. I want to keep this one all Toyota.

My question is: Which Toyota diesel would be the best for this application?

Here is my criteria: I want to run 35"s. I have 4.11's from the stock 62 axles. The motor must be turboed, I live at 6,000 ft. This will be a wheeler/daily driver-commuter so I would like to maintain highway speeds as well.

I am leaning towards the 13BT or the 12HT. Is either of these better than the other? I would also look at a 1HZ with an aftermarket turbo or a 1HDT, or even a 3B with AXT turbo. If this was your truck, which Toyota diesel would you choose?

Thanks and all input greatly appreciated.
 
Joined
Feb 10, 2003
Messages
359
Location
Brisbane
13BT or 14BT over the big sixes anyday. They always seem a bit more sprightly and free reving than the H based variants. The 6's have a chunk more torque at low revs though, but feel like they are over-reving at high speeds. All of this is completely subjective though.

Sam
 

rick_d

 
 
 
Joined
Apr 20, 2002
Messages
1,322
more important,

what is your budget?

I doubt you can get into an engine-tranny combo for under $6000. 12H-T's might be a long wait (ask greg or sheldon).

I am 1HD-Ting my bj74, engine $5,000, parts and misc are $6,000 for everything else and I am super hooked up (I do have Marks gears and went with new HZJ-H55). Toyota turbo diesels will be at least $8,000 installed by yerself.

I advocate 4 cylinders for short wheelbase primary off road, 6 cylinders for wagons. I wanted 500 more rpm's so I can still run 85 mph with 32" tires and 4.11's. the 13B-T ended (3,100 rpm approx, too much heat in az summers) under 80 mph....
 
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
1,001
Yeah, I kow that the Toyota diesels will be pricey. I am not made of money but I do want to build a really nice driver-friendly truck. I am selling off all my other toys to fund this little project.

I forgot to mention that my wife will be driving this truck. I built the Cummins 4BT FJ60 for her but she now thinks that she would look better in the Troopie. She really misses her old FJ40 and is excited to have a convertible again.

I oringinally intended to keep the 3FE/4 speed in the Troopie. But, now she is pushing to diesielize it. She loves the mileage we are getting in the 60 and that I will be running WVO soon. So, got to make the wife happy, right? :)

rick_d: From your calculations, the 13BT would not push 35"s with 4.11's at 80mph? My Troopie has a wheelbase of 104", about like your 74, I think. It is a mid-wheel base truck, I guess. It will see some offroading, nothing hardcore. It will be used mainly as an exploration rig and I would like to see average highway speeds of 75mph.

BTW, where did you find such a good deal on your 1HD-T? Any chance on finding me one?
 

crushers

post ho
 
 
Joined
Feb 10, 2004
Messages
22,188
Location
Tara Ontario
13BT, good little motor. not the best on fuel about the same as a HDT. yes, it will turn 35s at 80 mph with 4.11s (BTDT). with the manual tranny it can be an art to drive off road, very twitchy. the auto is fine off road and on. (i forget the 0-100 time but no where as fast as the next 2)
1PZ, sweet engine turbo it and it goes like Jack the Bear. easily faster than the 12HT, 13BT, 2H(T), HDT, don't believe me? let's go for a ride. 1 sec behind the 1HZ(t). same block as the 1HZ. very quiet and smooth. turbo'd 0-100 km/hr in 16 sec.
1HZ turbo''d, pulls STRONG. i drove this engine from Calgary to Pismo Beash 5800 miles in a HZJ75 turning 35s with 4.11 diffs at speeds up to 90 mph (at times 100 mph) without a hickup. beautiful engine. strong quiet. turbo's 0-100 km/hr in 15 sec.
HDT, a grunt of a motor. not the greatest for fuel consumption but for pulling a 6500 lb vehicle it returns decent milage. if it can move that weight down the road at 80 mph turning 33s with 4.11s easily all day then 35s in your light rig will be a breaze. a bit twitchy wiht the manual behind it but ultra smooth wiht eh automatic. 0-100 in 18 sec.
12HT, a bit twitchy with a manual behind it, really sucks off road, in auto it is fine off road and on. quick enough but once again not the best on fuel. will turn 35s with 4.11s with out effort at 80 mph. 0-100 in 19 sec.
2H(T), good grunt. better fuel milage than the 12HT and the HDT. it turns 33s with no problem at 60 mph. personally i think you will be working the engine pretty good with 35s and 4.11s at 80 mph. 2H(t) 0-100 unknown

sorry, that is all i know of these engines first hand experience.
oh, the 3B(T), probably the best on fuel about on par with the *Z engines. for steady turning of 35s at 80 mph with 4.11s would be working it hard. you wold probably end up with overheating problems. a grunt of an engine and one with a history of putting up with abuse. in this case i would not recommend it.

HTHs
cheers
 

Greg_B

 
 
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2002
Messages
4,579
Nice synopsis Wayne. A couple of additions...

I do not find the 13BT twitchy off road at all.

The 12HT manual is twitchy. I recall William-Jans site listing 3 methods of reducing this. If my memory is correct it is: increased spring pressure at the pump, raise up the point at which the pivot works on the pedal, add a small shock behind the pedal like some sports cars use.

Your detailed work with the 1HZ and PZ are going to add lots of knowledge and is great. Comparing a hopped 1HZ to a stock 12HT, while a good datum for those who know the engines is not a true comparison imo. Tune a 12HT to the percentage a 1HZ is tuned...then compare numbers. Lets say you have tuned the 1HZ 30% above stock. How would a 12HT or 1HD-T compare side by side with a tuned HZ; all tuned 30% above stock settings?

I mention this so readers will not forget that the DI 13BT, 12HT, and 1HD-T can be tuned, as you have with the HZ or PZ. Arguably the DI engines could be tuned to a higher degree then their IDI brethren...unless you look after items like larger openings in the precups and lowering compression.

All that said, I like the IDI motors too.

hth's

gb
 
Last edited:

crushers

post ho
 
 
Joined
Feb 10, 2004
Messages
22,188
Location
Tara Ontario
what you say it true and i have heard this from Peter as well. what would you do to a 12HT of any of the other DI engines to up the power 30%? and at the same time keep the overall drivability?
the only thing i can think of, at this time of night, off hand is Propane Injection.
 

Greg_B

 
 
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2002
Messages
4,579
crushers said:
what you say it true and i have heard this from Peter as well. what would you do to a 12HT of any of the other DI engines to up the power 30%? and at the same time keep the overall drivability?
the only thing i can think of, at this time of night, off hand is Propane Injection.
Some ideas to start: Increase boost, intercooler, tune pump, rebuild injectors, increase fuel (if you can get the air in to use it), ceramic coat the turbo and manifold, etc...

Find a turbo that boosts over 20 psi...

I don't know what it would take to get 30% more out the wheels. That figure was thrown out more as a figure to compare everything with.

Could take it all apart and polish everything to assist airflow, then ceramic coat as much as possible to keep the heat energy going to the turbine...

gb
 

crushers

post ho
 
 
Joined
Feb 10, 2004
Messages
22,188
Location
Tara Ontario
i realise the 30% was a figure out of the air.

i would love to see someone (with the money to loose) do all the work that you are talking. it would be interesting to see the longivity of a 13BT, 12HT, HDT with 30 lbs of boost the idea of porting the entire exhaust system, balalncing the engine and reducing hte friction is decent but it will be time consuming and a lot more work than just slapping a turbo on, crank the boost, up the fuel and away you go.
if i, or you, had the desire, we both have donor 13BTs to work with but for me that is more work then i wish to put out. i do not really want to end up like Peter with a pile of parts sitting there with no desire to finish the project.

also for me i like simplicity, i want to drive my rig. on my own projects i loose interest if the item isn't accomplished in 2 weeks.
 

Greg_B

 
 
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2002
Messages
4,579
Greg_B said:
Some ideas to start: Increase boost, intercooler, tune pump, rebuild injectors, increase fuel (if you can get the air in to use it), ceramic coat the turbo and manifold, etc...gb
Morning Wayne.

Where is the "money to lose" in the statement above? Intercooler would probably be the most expensive...if you get it off the shelf, and all of the above will benefit the IDI engine as well.

Ok. Now you are talking quickest bang for the buck...

Yes, plunking a turbo on a IDI 1HZ or 3B will give the quickest and biggest result...Remember "Air is Power."

Once they are both turbo'd, all modifcations revolve around increasing air density, movement of that air, getting the most heat energy to the turbines, and then allowing that air to escape. In this...the costs for IDI or DI would be the same. There will be a point at which the DI would leave the IDI behind, due to built in limitations, unless you get into the area you are refering too.

Hmmmm...thinking about the above quote. Many people that put a turbo on a IDI engine also do all of what is in that quote, in addition to the larger exhaust. With the DI, you already have the turbo, so save that expense.

I did forget one of the simple modifications to include on the the above quote: Larger exhaust, with free flow muffler, or no muffler. But then...this cost would be the same for both DI and IDI.

gb
 

fjbj40

 
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2004
Messages
1,229
Location
east coast Canada
pertaining to the IDI engines...has anybody opened up the pre-cup 's ? that hole is pretty small and I am sure if you get some qualified flow bench person to put a 3b head on a flow bench and open up the pre-cups and mildly port all the ex. then the engine would be way more efficient . Beable to get more air through by reducing the pumping loss and make quite a bit more power and probably wake the engine up !
I know it is only a 3b butthat is what I have to work with right now so I might play with it cause what I am talking about is way cheeper than the engine I want which is a 1HZ ...or maybe the 1PZ as it seems like a pretty good engine from what Wayne is talking about .
Also the pre-cup porting would lend itself to the 1 HZ/PZ as they are IDI.
Peter Straub talked about the pre-cups in this way on DTLC but I don't know if he tried it , have not contacted him on it yet.

Whatcha think ? Daryl
 

crushers

post ho
 
 
Joined
Feb 10, 2004
Messages
22,188
Location
Tara Ontario
"money to loose" was to say if all the mods did not work out then there is time and money and maybe a dead engine to consider.

but enough of my negativity, let me think positive for a second.

a couple rules though:
first: the engine when completed has to perform off road as good or better than stock
second: the longivity and reliability must stay close to the same (in other words it has to last more than a couple runs down the track)

if i was to port a head for air flow i would first want to consider the wall thickness between the valve chamber and the coolant passeges. we know this area on the 3B and the 2L heads are minimal to say the least, does anyone know for a fact how thick this wall is on the 13BT, HDT or the 12HT? if so please speak up. i would not want to start tampering with the wall thickness by porting it till i knew this after all we are talking an engine being built for power.

now for boost, what do you think is a safe reliable boost for the 12HT, HDT and the 13BT? we know that running 14 lbs seems safe enough but is 20 lbs safe or 25 or even 30 that Peter alliuded to? how much added stress to the crank, the bearings, the gaskets is occuring?


if you increase the fuel flow of the injectors what about off road performace at a crawl? fuel economy will be hampered since this becomes a fixed mod. a turbo only affects when the boost is on same with air flow.


for me i would want to take a sacrificial head and cut it length way to see the actuall weak (thin) spots of the head before porting. if the walls seemed thick enough then i would go with the polish and porting.

cheers
 

rick_d

 
 
 
Joined
Apr 20, 2002
Messages
1,322
icky's hdj60 gets the same miles per gallon as my bj74 (with 13b-t).

..and I did sell my 13b-t w/o tranny and a few small items for $4,500 offsetting conversion costs.

while the hd-t was sort of a deal, it did lack a number of small problem parts
-cold start device (leaving a ? fix)
-alternator
-a/c pump
-starter
-wire harness
-bellhousing/flywheel
etc.

friends added to it, I had leftovers from another hd-t project, etc.

remember, i am going diesel to diesel in a factory application. you are going ancient gas to diesel!!!
 

Greg_B

 
 
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2002
Messages
4,579
crushersif i was to port a head for air flow i would first want to consider the wall thickness between the valve chamber and the coolant passeges. we know this area on the 3B and the 2L heads are minimal to say the least said:
now for boost, what do you think is a safe reliable boost for the 12HT, HDT and the 13BT? we know that running 14 lbs seems safe enough but is 20 lbs safe or 25 or even 30 that Peter alliuded to? how much added stress to the crank, the bearings, the gaskets is occuring?

cheers
What is the thermal load increase on the 3B and 1HZ from the increased air density flow through the precups. As you say, the 2LT is famous for, and the 3B occationally has issue with their heads. Is this directly related to the increased thermal load on the head from precups in the IDI vs DI design, and will not a turbo increase this thermal load? Nickle head and SS precups seem to be the way to go with the 3B.

Yes, 20lbs would be much safer on a DI VS IDI engine in stock trim. I would suggest one would have to change out the stock turbo to one that is built to live with those boost levels, adding to the cost to hop up a stock DI Toyota Diesel engine.

Very good questions Wayne; While we are asking questions: What does the increased load do for longevity of the BEB's on the 1HZ or 1PZ? We already know the turbo'd version (1HD-T) has issues.

I would not consider increasing the fuel flow of the injectors until turning the pump up does nothing. My comment about the injectors was to make sure crack pressure is at the top of the spec, and tips are in good condition. The big surface of the IDI nozzle will take even more of a beating from thermal load and dribble if not set right.

Grease Cruiser...sorry for the jack. Not intended. Hope you don't mind your thread taking a direction...

gb
 
Last edited:

crushers

post ho
 
 
Joined
Feb 10, 2004
Messages
22,188
Location
Tara Ontario
we are changing out the BEB on the HZJ75 i turbo'd last year today and will know if there is much wear. please do remember this is an old mine truck so the wear (if any) could be from either abuse of the mines or load wear from the turbo and how i drove it. this will be interesting to see and compare with the 3 sets of HDT bearings i have sitting here.

if you want we could move this to a new thread...
cheers
 

Greg_B

 
 
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2002
Messages
4,579
fjbj40 said:
Beable to get more air through by reducing the pumping loss and make quite a bit more power and probably wake the engine up !
I know it is only a 3b butthat is what I have to work with right now so I might play with it Daryl
Simply adding a turbo to a 1HZ or 3B will bring it alive. Folks have been doing it for years with moderate boost and no problems...if the engine is healthy. It is a valid and great option. I would not get caught up in "having" to port and polish if you are staying moderate.

gb
 

Greg_B

 
 
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2002
Messages
4,579
Grease Cruiser said:
I am leaning towards the 13BT or the 12HT. Is either of these better than the other? I would also look at a 1HZ with an aftermarket turbo or a 1HDT, or even a 3B with AXT turbo. If this was your truck, which Toyota diesel would you choose?
There is a 12HT of ours in a Troopie in the USA. I believe there was a write-up on Pirates about it.

Are you planning on running Bio-Diesel, or WVO/SVO? I have not kept up on the discussion in this area, however is there comment that IDI is better with SVO and with Bio-Diesel either DI or IDI is fine?

I have found the inline 6's seem much smoother and balanced.

Maybe hit an Ozzie board and ask your question, as they have tons more experience with most of these engines then we do in North America. http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/

hth's

gb
 
Joined
Dec 7, 2004
Messages
483
Location
The Lou
Greg_B said:
Some ideas to start: Increase boost, intercooler, tune pump, rebuild injectors, increase fuel (if you can get the air in to use it), ceramic coat the turbo and manifold, etc...

Find a turbo that boosts over 20 psi...

I don't know what it would take to get 30% more out the wheels. That figure was thrown out more as a figure to compare everything with.

Could take it all apart and polish everything to assist airflow, then ceramic coat as much as possible to keep the heat energy going to the turbine...

gb
What intercooler has been used in the 12HT??? I've been thinking of rigging one up when you guys send me my engine, but am not sure which way to go...

Can the output plenums on the turbo'd side and the intake on the air rail be rotated to pipe the air off towards the radiator to an IC, or would you have to use flexible hoses and bend them around?

I've never seen a 12HT up close and personal, so the day you and sheldon send me mine will be the fist I have ever seen one. It's kinda hard to plan on anything when I'm not quite sure what I have to work with.

Fred

Any suggestions? What about shimming the wastegate-- has that been done on a 12HT?
 

fjbj40

 
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2004
Messages
1,229
Location
east coast Canada
Greg_B said:
Simply adding a turbo to a 1HZ or 3B will bring it alive. Folks have been doing it for years with moderate boost and no problems...if the engine is healthy. It is a valid and great option. I would not get caught up in "having" to port and polish if you are staying moderate.

gb
I know about the turbo option....I have pretty much completed building my turbo manifold for the 3b , have turbo in hand and plan on dry fitting the whole thing in a week or to to properly clock and position the turbo . :bounce:
What I was saying is after the turbo is on I might look at taking the old spare head I have and getting a pre-cup and bringing it to a engine shop here in NS which apparently is one of the shops which have been porting for 20 years or so on Nascar engines and see what can be done . That small hole is adding alot of pumping loss and may be a contributing factor to 3b low power output and high EGT's.
Don't get me wrong...I am not trying to build a HIGH OUTPUT 3B that is simpily futile ! And I am not going to dump alot of $$ into it either....just play :)
A 1HZT will be in there in a year or two anyway !

Daryl
 

crushers

post ho
 
 
Joined
Feb 10, 2004
Messages
22,188
Location
Tara Ontario
the 3B already has serious head cracking issues so be careful of the amount of meat you take off.
cheers
 
Top Bottom