Veggie/diesel fuel tank (1 Viewer)

[Radd Cruisers]

Bear with me here as I have not done much reading on WVO or SVO. If you live in a northern climate, hang the fuel outside the truck, and heat the WVO after it leaves the tank, would there not be a gelling concern in the winter? What is the minimum temp needed to keep the WVO or SVO fluid enough to get to the inline heater so it can be bumped up in temp?

gb

Okay then this makes it a little more difficult, I could build a tank with two compartments and a leave a space between the two, drill holes on the top and bottom of the air pocket to allow air flow also.

Heres the hard part, how do I pressure test and fix any pinholes that may be in the inner tank walls once the outer ends are welded into place???

Guess I could use the tank liner product and tumble the tank?

Rob

 

[Island Moose]

Seems like a big PITA to avoid making a couple of SS tanks, especially when you figure you're not increasing range. There are quite a few ideas out there as to where tanks can fit:

http://www.redlands4wd.com.au/fuel_tanks.htm

Re: pinholes internally....?????

Tank liner won't fix pinholes, and I'll bet there's no data on using it with veggie oil.

 

[Radd Cruisers]

We have used tank liners many times in boat tanks that were leaking and they work great.

Some lines you put in the tank then float it with water, it will rise and coat the sides.

Other option make to halfs of the tank seperate test and repair pin holes then join the two tanks together via strapping or something like that.

Funny how elaberate a mouse trap can get.......

Seems like a big PITA to avoid making a couple of SS tanks, especially when you figure you're not increasing range. There are quite a few ideas out there as to where tanks can fit:

http://www.redlands4wd.com.au/fuel_tanks.htm

Re: pinholes internally....?????

Tank liner won't fix pinholes, and I'll bet there's no data on using it with veggie oil.

 

[Grease Cruiser]

I have racked my brain for hours upon the subject of getting an auxiliary tank to work for WVO on a 60 series. If you build one large tank with two separate chambers, can you be absolutely sure that the two fuels do not mix? Mixing diesel with the WVO is not a huge problem but the other way around is not good. Running WVO that is not heated gels up injectors, filters, etc. Or, if it burns it can coke up the injectors and cause major problems down the line.

So, my thoughts were to have two separate tanks either side by side or top and bottom. If I went top and bottom, I could keep my factory fuel tank and jsut build another tanks below it. I personally would love to have 40-50 gallons of combined fuel. This would give me a 1000-1250 mile range between fill ups.

From what I have heard WVO weighs in at about 7lbs per gallon. This would add over 200lbs to the back of the vehicle. I would definitely have to add another leaf to carry this extra weight on my SOA setup.

Also, I have another dilemma. I am running a 3" exhaust that takes up quite a bit of space where I want to put my other tank. I can move it a little to free up some extra room but not sure how much more room it will give me.

Good luck Rob. I definetely want to see what you come up with.

 

[Radd Cruisers]

I have racked my brain for hours upon the subject of getting an auxiliary tank to work for WVO on a 60 series. If you build one large tank with two separate chambers, can you be absolutely sure that the two fuels do not mix? Mixing diesel with the WVO is not a huge problem but the other way around is not good. Running WVO that is not heated gels up injectors, filters, etc. Or, if it burns it can coke up the injectors and cause major problems down the line.

So, my thoughts were to have two separate tanks either side by side or top and bottom. If I went top and bottom, I could keep my factory fuel tank and jsut build another tanks below it. I personally would love to have 40-50 gallons of combined fuel. This would give me a 1000-1250 mile range between fill ups.

From what I have heard WVO weighs in at about 7lbs per gallon. This would add over 200lbs to the back of the vehicle. I would definitely have to add another leaf to carry this extra weight on my SOA setup.

Also, I have another dilemma. I am running a 3" exhaust that takes up quite a bit of space where I want to put my other tank. I can move it a little to free up some extra room but not sure how much more room it will give me.

Good luck Rob. I definetely want to see what you come up with.

Thanks, it will be side by side for ease design and build.

Filling is my next big issue.

After reading the ausie heat exchangers it sounds like if you heat the diesel a bit with the heat exchanger it only burns better, but does it pose a problem heating the tank of diesel fuel otherwise???


More information needed............

 

[Bruno AZ]

Been thinking about a fuel tank for a 60 series that would be split 1/3 for diesel and 2/3 for veggie.

The idea would be to run a heat exchanger in the tank that would use the rear heater hoses(Sheldons idea) to worm the veggie before flipping the fuel switch and switching tanks.

And the idea of the filler neck with a switching valve that changes direction for filling two tanks like the one Slee Off road sells(I think).

Any improvements or ideas on making this a better system would be appreciated.

Rob

Hi Rob,

Some old technology might be cheaper and safer as well as more servicable.
If you were to make two tanks with flanged mating surfaces so that a thermal isolator can be sandwiched together by bolting the two tanks together forming seemingly one tank. The next thing would be to make the WVO tank side a heat exchanger itself. This is very old technolgy used on rail road cars hauling high Viscosity petrolium fluids. The tank would be much like the railroad car in that it would have a hole cut on each end and then a pipe is slipped in one end and out the other. the pipe ends are then welded to the wall of the tank on each end inside and out.

The electric elements are reqular nichrome wire with ceramic isolators made up to the length of the tank. You typically see twenty or thirty of these on a rail car. This is kind of air to air thermal transfer. The key to this type of design is that if the elements fail and you would have liquid asphalt on board. All that would be required is to pull the elements out and slide new ones in.

In your case the holes at each end of the tank would be 1/2" with a 1/2" pipe welded through and you would not need more than 4 pipes if even that. The elements can be purchased at any hvac center or industrial distributor. Also instead of nichrome wire you can use common heat trace. This is used to wrap valves and piping in industial processes and commercial applications. Each of the methods has varying voltages and watt densities and most of all is cheap.

This is a technolgy that has been around forever and parts are easy to come buy. Other methods such as block heater or cartridges are generally hold & cold zone elements. A crank case heater thst is 4" long has 1" of cold zone closest to its threaded connection and the remaining 3" is hot zone if the fluid level falls below the cold zone the element burns itself up in no time at all.

Making the WVO tank side a non inttrusive style heat exchanger benifits by not having to drain or drop or cut up the tank to service it. Note on one end of the pass through pipe will be a welded cap and the other side would be a 1/2 fnpt fitting. Another feature of this design is that heat transfer wire is so cheap that you can install one watt density say 5w per linear and have set of 8w perl linear inch on the shelf. You can use inverters at home and put reostats all sorts of controls.

Manufactures such as Indeeco Mfg. and Watlow Mfg. have web sites and about 80 distributors each worldwide. Many of these products are used at your work places for freeze protection and electric duct heaters. Thermon Mfg. in texas is a manufacturer of heat trace and car nuts as you will once you hit that website.

Some key information required to calculate this application would be as follows.
Products specific heat index. Each form of oil will have a specific heat index to identify its themal properties. Corn oil, Peanut oil etc. select what would most likley be the predominate fluid supply.
Thermal range or temperature differential requirement. The low side ambient temp in your area and the temperature to be maintained. The difference is the delta t requirement.
Fluid volume total gallons and the minimum gallons before refill. note if you wire four elements on four on off switches and use a mechanical temp indicator as the tank fluid level lowers the temp starts to climb and you can shut off one element at a time simple and cheap or you can go techno.
Tank dimensions and alloy composition as well as alloy thickness or gage.
Just about any applications engineer should be able to calculate total btu requirement and provide the correct range and type of product needed.

sorry so long
Vic

 

[silvercrusher]

I know from experience on many diesel gensets that if you run your diesel fuel above 170 you will start to lose injector pumps. Alot of these are installed in ships and the temps in some enginerooms when near the equator is sometimes 160-180F The fuel picks up the heat from the air temp on its way to the engine and sometimes even flashes off in the injector pump. This is very rare. However what cools your pump? Diesel that sits in the shade in that rear tank. I'm not sure what temp toy injector pumps can handle but close tolerances and heat don't mix. Just a thought!

 

[Behemoth60]

I've also been doing significant research on this subject. This is for my very thirsty daily driven powerstroked tow-van, but the principals are the same.

Heating the WVO Tank

there's three lines of thought here.
1. Heat it with some form of heat exchanger using engine coolant. Problems here are that it may tank a long time to get your tank up to temp and be unusable for shorter trips. The other problem is the risk of a leak, and pumping coolant into your injection system. Bad. I've seen a Solid Aluminum Heat Exchanger made by one company to eliminate this risk. The other way to mitigate this is to be one of those cool doods with a Webasto, and run that to pre-heat your WVO before you even start driving.
2. Heat with Electric. That's a lot of electricity, and you may want a bigger alternator for that funny business. Probably fine if you drive a powerstroke which has options for an ambulance package alternator, but not if you rely on an alternator to provide vacuum.
3. Heat in line only with electric. Still need a lot of power as you need to heat FAST, and in really cold weather, the WVO in the tank could freeze solid and not flow at all!

When I do it... my WVO tank will have two compartments - one small one where a fully sealed coolant heater will be located, and a larger one which will trickle in cold WVO to replace what's been used. Webato will pre-heat the oil for me.

Heating the Lines

In Canada, a problem one is going to have is WVO gelling in the lines when not in use. If you plan on using WVO in the winter, this is going to be a problem for all but our cold blooded lower mainland/Vancouver Island brethren. This company has created a fuel line that is surrounded by coolant lines to ensure that the full length of the line is heated.

As for heating an adjacent Diesel tank
I say don't worry about it. It should be significantly smaller than the WVO tank, and hot diesel fuel burns better anyway. By the time any apreciable heat is lost to the diesel, your WVO will be up to temp anyway.

As for filling from the same filler neck.... I sure wouldn't do it. In fact, I would put another fuel door on the opposite side for WVO. Accidentially putting Diesel into the WVO tank is no biggie, but putting WVO into the diesel tank can make for a rather annoying afternoon of draining wretched and smelly oil.

This is the company with both electic heaters and the sealed coolant heaters. They're Canadian, to boot. This is the company with the heated fuel line.

Peter Straub

 

[Jan-78FJ40]

As for filling from the same filler neck.... I sure wouldn't do it. In fact, I would put another fuel door on the opposite side for WVO. Accidentially putting Diesel into the WVO tank is no biggie, but putting WVO into the diesel tank can make for a rather annoying afternoon of draining wretched and smelly oil.

Peter Straub

sorry to side track, but I thought diesel and WVO mix? so if you dump a liter of oil into the diesel, would it precipitate/harden, and not mix?
thanks
Jan

 

[HZJ60 Guy]

What exactly is the purpose of this double tank? Why not just mix the two fuels?

 

[Behemoth60]

sorry to side track, but I thought diesel and WVO mix? so if you dump a liter of oil into the diesel, would it precipitate/harden, and not mix?
thanks
Jan

It's not an issue of not mixing or precipitating. It's a basic design philosphy of mine.

I have more than a handful of rather custom things to one of my trucks, to the point where it's no longer a theft risk... without a 10 minute training session, you won't get very far in it (although, there are few known obstacles that would stop it while it went it's short distance) I am ALWAYS forgetting some switch in some position - I forget to turn themanual fan on high for a high speed section of trail and overheat, or forget to turn the fan back to low while idling, and kill the battery, or leave the air compressor clutch turned on over night, or.. or... or... . It's too a point now where I will not willingly design something where some switch has to be in some position to avoid doing something silly (without having a warning light at the minimum). Especially on something that is a daily driver, or that my wife, brother in law or buddy might borrow.

Inthis case, if you put WVO in your diesel tank where you don't have a heater.. Even if it's warm enough to flow nicely through your pump and injectors, you cannot pre-heat it to make it hot enough to burn properly. It won't do any damage, it's just that you'll have a tank full of fuel that hardly burns, and your only option is to drain the tank, which isn't a lot of fun.


Peter Straub

 

[Jan-78FJ40]

What exactly is the purpose of this double tank? Why not just mix the two fuels?

too much vegetable oil in diesel + cold weather =clump of grime----> injectors unhappy----->truck not running------>you unhappy.

 

[Jan-78FJ40]

It's not an issue of not mixing or precipitating. It's a basic design philosphy of mine.

I have more than a handful of rather custom things to one of my trucks, to the point where it's no longer a theft risk... without a 10 minute training session, you won't get very far in it (although, there are few known obstacles that would stop it while it went it's short distance) I am ALWAYS forgetting some switch in some position - I forget to turn themanual fan on high for a high speed section of trail and overheat, or forget to turn the fan back to low while idling, and kill the battery, or leave the air compressor clutch turned on over night, or.. or... or... . It's too a point now where I will not willingly design something where some switch has to be in some position to avoid doing something silly (without having a warning light at the minimum). Especially on something that is a daily driver, or that my wife, brother in law or buddy might borrow.

Inthis case, if you put WVO in your diesel tank where you don't have a heater.. Even if it's warm enough to flow nicely through your pump and injectors, you cannot pre-heat it to make it hot enough to burn properly. It won't do any damage, it's just that you'll have a tank full of fuel that hardly burns, and your only option is to drain the tank, which isn't a lot of fun.


Peter Straub

thanks, makes sense.
Jan

 

[sandcruiser]

I just got some 3 in 1 tube from greasel (I think it was greasel)... neat stuff. I plan to use that as most of my heat exchanger--- of course I live in a climate that is almost never below 75 degrees F and usually closer to 90, so I don't have as much heating need.

if I can find a decent heat-exchange filter, I'll plumb that into the line and have a great system for where I live. Planning to use the main tank for svo and install a smaller tank underneath for diesel.

 

[HZJ60 Guy]

too much vegetable oil in diesel + cold weather =clump of grime----> injectors unhappy----->truck not running------>you unhappy.

Then just dont use the stuff in the winter!?!!?!?!?!

 

[brownbear]

I'm sure in our temps a heater in the tank(coolant) as well as a heater before the injector pump upstream of the switching valve will be needed.

as well multiple fuel lines from the tanks. one dino one SVO. you want the purge process up at the firewall. otherwise you will have to wait too long to get a purge. if you have anything but a 3B you will need two seperate return lines. so you are looking at 4 fuel line, 2 heater lines . a conduit would work great, then the coolant might heat up the fuel lines.

I like the idea of a single tank with two compartments. Once you go SVO I doubt we will need a 90 liter dino tank.

but I think your overall tank needs to have decent range as well. If you are on a simple 1000km road trip you will not want to hit resturants every little bit for oil, or want to go to costco for cubes of oil.

I think 120 liter plus capacity would be the target. with the ability to use dino in both tanks if needed. so you would want to be able to shut off the heat,

I would also want a submersable or bonded heat pad on the bottom of the tank that could be plugged in to my house outlet to make the warm up process faster in the cold.

I think the idea of teeing off of the rear heater is great.

work on it, I might buy one if the price isn't too high. I do want to do this.

 

[brownbear]

Then just dont use the stuff in the winter!?!!?!?!?!

what is your thought process on this? I read your first post about why not just mix it? then this one.

Are you getting Biodiesel confused with Waste Vegetable oil? I might be wrong but I will explain,

you can buy bio I have read(in the states). you can also brew bio at home. But what they are trying to accomplish with the two tanks is not run bio in one and dino in the other. Its to run raw waste oil.

not cut it down with chemicals and make fuel. but to heat and lower the viscosity to the point were it flows like diesel.

Its simpler and cheaper that bio. but the set has a price of course.

now if I was mistaken about the way I percieved your posts I am sorry.

If you are referring to a single tank Waste oil system that is different.
it requires mods to your engine to run. as you run the oil as it is. so that means you need injector changes and maybe pump. some guys do this in warm areas.

very troublesome. and you can't switch back to dino. unless you redo your injectors etc.

if you only want a single tank, bio is the only option if you are looking for using waste oil.

as far as not doing it in the winter, what would be the purpose of doing it at all then??? we have winter and cold weather more than warm.

thats why a good insulated heated dual tank might be the cats ass..........

 

[HZJ60 Guy]

what is your thought process on this? I read your first post about why not just mix it? then this one.

Are you getting Biodiesel confused with Waste Vegetable oil? I might be wrong but I will explain,

you can buy bio I have read(in the states). you can also brew bio at home. But what they are trying to accomplish with the two tanks is not run bio in one and dino in the other. Its to run raw waste oil.

not cut it down with chemicals and make fuel. but to heat and lower the viscosity to the point were it flows like diesel.

Its simpler and cheaper that bio. but the set has a price of course.

now if I was mistaken about the way I percieved your posts I am sorry.

If you are referring to a single tank Waste oil system that is different.
it requires mods to your engine to run. as you run the oil as it is. so that means you need injector changes and maybe pump. some guys do this in warm areas.

very troublesome. and you can't switch back to dino. unless you redo your injectors etc.

if you only want a single tank, bio is the only option if you are looking for using waste oil.

as far as not doing it in the winter, what would be the purpose of doing it at all then??? we have winter and cold weather more than warm.

thats why a good insulated heated dual tank might be the cats ass..........

My point is that if you live someplace that is so cold you're affraid of gelling, just dont use the stuff during those times of the year. I had some of the stuff (B100) gell on me here in the Seattle area two winters ago. That should shock you if you know how mild our winters are around here.

 

[crushers]

curious, bio/veggie etc newbie question, is there any advantage to running this stuff for the short trips most of us use our cruisers for?
i am tinking along the lones of a daily driver back and forth to work say 1/2 hour each way. i am picturing the purging of the lines to get to be a big pain o the butt in relativly short order, also if you do "forget" to purge the lines on a winter day how do you fix the problem?
i can see this whole thing becoming mute in short order, not to think expensive if someting goes wrong.
say it costs $1000 to set up and another $1000 for Rob's tank and all the plumbing etc to hook it up in the vehicle and if you had to pay someone to install then add that into the equation.
now lets just go with $2500 for a nice round figure, you can buy 2942 L of fuel which works out to 29,500 km just to break even.
now add to that any mess ups, faulty parts, ooops and your time to make the stuff or buy the veggie, now you are ending up with quite a while just to break even...
correct me if i am wrong but the only time i can see this idea being feasible is if you drive LONG distances every month...

for me, who owns a vehicle for a very short time and drives usually very short distance (unless doing a putz) or those like me, i can not see this being a benefit...
cheers

 

[Behemoth60]

curious, bio/veggie etc newbie question, is there any advantage to running this stuff for the short trips most of us use our cruisers for?

I think you're right wayne. Bio-diesel is a better solution for short hauls. It takes more work to brew, but no vehcile mods and is fine for short hauls. Veggie oil is easier to get into the tank requires vehicle mods, and pays off best with long haul trips due to the need for warm up, and switch over, then switching back to diesel at the end of the trip. That's why I am only considering this for my tow van.

Peter