Upgraded cam, throttle body & exhaust (1 Viewer)

[Spook50]

The other day I found in my shop a used but serviceable cam that was given to me by Tonkota on here a while back when he did his 2FE & Delta cam upgrade. I didn't realize how inexpensive it is to send them a cam to regrind, so that got my curiosity up. My end goal as far as juicing up my 3FE a bit is to install the upgraded cam, finally get the spare throttle body I've got bored out by RC Engineering and replace my nearly rusted out exhaust with the new style Man-A-Fre headers and non-cat EMS stainless exhaust (still working on getting the wife's OK on spending the cash for that one).

I'm hoping the upgraded TB and exhaust will help with top end on the highway when going over mountain passes and such, and the upgraded cam will help beef up the lower end for pulling, wheeling, etc. What do you guys think? I know any one alone would only make a minor difference, but the three together should make for a nice improvement, should it?

 

[Lead Head]

The cam and exhaust should make a noticeable difference.

I doubt the throttle body will change much. These engines already have quite a big throttle body for how little power they make. It'll just make the low end "feel" snappier because it will let more air in at lower throttle positions.

 

[Mark W]

The camshaft should give you quite noticeable increase in mid range and top end, and not expect much noticeable performance increase in the low end.

How much depends on what grind you use.

Not sure how much I would worry about the headers. The stock 3FE exhaust manifolds are pretty free flowing already.


Larger TB well not increases low end. The engine will only draw a much air as it needs. Bigger bore helps mid range and top end.


Mark...

 

[Pacer]

As I mentioned in my EMS review, no difference in power over stock exhaust or wide open.
Do the cam, let us know.

 

[Spook50]

The camshaft should give you quite noticeable increase in mid range and top end, and not expect much noticeable performance increase in the low end.

How much depends on what grind you use.

Not sure how much I would worry about the headers. The stock 3FE exhaust manifolds are pretty free flowing already.

Larger TB well not increases low end. The engine will only draw a much air as it needs. Bigger bore helps mid range and top end.

Mark...

I had thought the only grind available to us through Delta was targeted at improving low end torque rather than any improvement to the top end. If there are other grinds available I'll do some homework and see what would work well for me.

I know the larger throttle wouldn't do anything for low end, for the exact reason you stated. My intention with the bigger throttle and exhaust would be to let the engine breathe easier when on the highway. As far as the headers, I know the 3FE manifold itself allows for plenty of flow, but if the high pressure pulses from each exhaust port just collide with each other where the manifold exits that could create turbulence that would increase back pressure on the engine to a level that would be detrimental to overall performance at high RPM. Good headers are designed to prevent that from happening. Now, the skeptic in me wonders if 1) the Man-A-Fre headers are tuned correctly for that outcome (which they claim to be), and if 2) the 3FE moves enough air at its upper RPM range to see any benefit from it. If yes to both, I would expect a noticeable improvement at highway speeds when a complete exhaust is combined with a bored out throttle body. This is all just based on stuff I've learned from guys who've hot-prodded their 225ci slant six engines, which are slightly smaller than ours, with great results. I know the 3FE is a different beast though. The 225 is just the closest engine in similarity that I've seen effective performance work done on.

What would be great would be to see a stock 3FE dyno'd as bone stock, then with one each of the various common performance modifications available, then with different combinations of them so we could all see actual numbers rather than going from the seat of the pants. As it is the best gauge I have is how far I make it up the big hill here before I have to downshift to stay at 60 MPH. Not really accurate, but better than "well it feels like it's got more power".

Pacer, I'm surprised you noticed no improvement over your stock exhaust. Years ago when I had a 2.5" done up from the Y-pipe back and a Flowmaster installed it made a big difference. Even more so when I replaced my cats with straight pipe. I would hope a no cat system from EMS would be on par with that, and maybe slightly better at wider open thanks to larger down pipes (mine are factory and nearly rusted out). Either way, as long as it's on par with the exhaust I have now power-wise I'd still go for it, since my exhaust needs done and the stainless will at least last a hell of a lot longer than just a few years.

 

[Mark W]

Delta has three profiles for the F series engines. I suggest their 262 degree stick.

Worrying about "tuned"headers on this engine is like wet sanding a set of rusty rims with 2000 grit sand paper. Won't hurt any thing, but a waste of time/money that will not resize any detectable gains.

A few flowing exhaust system is definitely a good move, but don't worry about it beyond that.


Mark...

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

Delta has three profiles for the F series engines. I suggest their 262 degree stick.

Worrying about "tuned"headers on this engine is like wet sanding a set of rusty rims with 2000 grit sand paper. Won't hurt any thing, but a waste of time/money that will not resize any detectable gains.

A few flowing exhaust system is definitely a good move, but don't worry about it beyond that.


Mark...

i promise I'm not stalking you




Spook50, are you already running a manual transmission? The H42 behind the 3FE has plenty of lo end pep with the factory 4.11s( just had mine redone-what a DIFF over the 3.7s. A 5 speed would give you your "top end" when combined with a cam and a lo end with its 4.9-1 first. AFAIU the cam and maybe the exhaust are the only things that would give you any real gain overall and the TB is not really something to worry too much about. That being said, if after the cam and after the exhaust, you still go hunting for more in the TB and find it, I'm sure that would be welcome news. I think you'll have to be pretty deep into the red to see anything real from it. It's nice to hear that the 3FEs headers aren't a real choke in the system. after dealing with the BS of headers in my old Camaro, I've found myself inclined to try to not have to need them.....

 

[Spook50]

Delta has three profiles for the F series engines. I suggest their 262 degree stick.

I did not know that. Given that, I think I would prefer a cam that improves top end performance, since once installed, my H55 should have just fine gearing in 1st and 2nd to get up and move.

Worrying about "tuned"headers on this engine is like wet sanding a set of rusty rims with 2000 grit sand paper. Won't hurt any thing, but a waste of time/money that will not resize any detectable gains.

That's what I was curious about. Unless the engine is actually flowing enough air to take advantage of tuned headers, they won't net any noticeable improvement.
Performance improvements aside, I would still like to get the headers since they use a ball & socket style connection to the downpipes, rather than the flange and gasket style (actually it looks like you can order them with either). The ball & socket seals much better than a 2-bolt flange, and I have a feeling if I try to remove said bolts on my manifold, I'll break 'em.

 

[Spook50]

Bringing this back since I (yet again lol) found my OEM cam and now that I FINALLY have the H55F and bigger tires I want to see what I can do for highway performance and ability to hold uphill grades longer before having to downshift (gotta say I'm damn impressed with what I've got at this point with the H55F). Headers seem to be NLA so until the flanges on my stock exhaust manifold end up actually warped and unable to seal I won't concern myself with them. Planning to soon have a whole new manifold-back exhaust system done that'll have a Flowmaster 50 series muffler so it'll run a little quieter than the 40 series style I've run for years, and the whole thing will be tucked up nicely inside the frame rail. So between a reground cam, upgraded over stock exhaust (flow rate the same really that I have now) and bored out throttle body, that should wake up the 3FE even better for long road trips over the mountains. Going to contact Delta in the next couple days to see about going ahead with sending them my cam and having it done so it's ready for when I can take a long weekend and really tear into my engine this summer (got a whole laundry list of stuff I want to do while the coolant is drained and front end more torn apart, so it'll be a big job. I've never replaced a cam on an F engine either so it could be a hoot....

 

[Seth S]

Probably easier to bolt on a turbo and run 7 lbs I’d boost via a sprung wastegate.

 

[Spook50]

Probably easier to bolt on a turbo and run 7 lbs I’d boost via a sprung wastegate.

Lotta work and expense putting a turbo on a 3FE. Be worth it if there were an actual kit for it though. Going from the ground up is a lot more downtime and R&D than I'm willing to invest at this point.

 

[Rusto]

@Spook50 I have to admire your persistence.. get it!

 

[Seth S]

Was looking through old photos today and saw this one and thought of this thread. A modification like this to your stock throttle body would likely yield more performance gain than going to a bigger one:

Its not my photo...just one I saved. It mainly shows the restriction that most stock throttle plate axles impose on the airflow and then a modification so that at full throttle the restriction is limited by the width of the throttle plate.

 

[Spook50]

Was looking through old photos today and saw this one and thought of this thread. A modification like this to your stock throttle body would likely yield more performance gain than going to a bigger one:

View attachment 2355780

Its not my photo...just one I saved. It mainly shows the restriction that most stock throttle plate axles impose on the airflow and then a modification so that at full throttle the restriction is limited by the width of the throttle plate.

If our throttle bodies were wider (which isn't even feasible given the dimensions of the intake plenum) that would be a good option for R&D. Unfortunately a setup like that wouldn't even work with the shape of our throttle bodies and plenums, so enlarging our OEM bodies is really the only option.

 

[Seth S]

If our throttle bodies were wider (which isn't even feasible given the dimensions of the intake plenum) that would be a good option for R&D. Unfortunately a setup like that wouldn't even work with the shape of our throttle bodies and plenums, so enlarging our OEM bodies is really the only option.

I'm sorry. I didn't explain my picture well enough. I didn't mean that you should switch to a dual port throttle body. I meant that you should look at the throttle plate pivot and see if you can minimize its impact to airflow. That picture shows the old large diameter pivot vs the modification that results in just the thickness of the throttle plate itself.

 

[Spook50]

I'm sorry. I didn't explain my picture well enough. I didn't mean that you should switch to a dual port throttle body. I meant that you should look at the throttle plate pivot and see if you can minimize its impact to airflow. That picture shows the old large diameter pivot vs the modification that results in just the thickness of the throttle plate itself.

View attachment 2356175

OOOOOHHHHHHHHH that is interesting. Makes me wonder how well that could be done on one of ours. Be worth looking into....

 

[red66toy]

If you are going to this length then I think switching to a MAF would yield better results. The AFM door has to be pretty limiting since the air flow has to physically open it.

 

[cruisermatt]

A bigger/improved throttle body or bigger MAF door, basically doing anything upstream of the plenum will net you a 0-horsepower gain at the wheels because you still have the fixed size opening in the plenum.

The Toyota ECU is really your limiting factor here because in essence it’s really just a emissions device. That would be the first thing I would want to get rid of.
I think that even if you just did a simple MicroSquirt system and built a coil on plug setup and went from batch fire to sequential and really spent your time tuning it I bet you could definitely pick up some MPG and maybe even some power. And once you have said system to control it the turbo is the easy part. Tons of room on the engine bay.

Of course no one will do this because “scary wiring”, the required effort, innovation, work, etc

 

[White Stripe]

You can make a custom j pipe that bolts to your stock headers for cheap which you can mount a turbo to. Cx racing has a kit for the Jeep 258. You could get their turbo, get a wastegate, do some plumbing, shoot for 5psi of boost, and get decent hp increase. Just retard the timing a little.

 

[red66toy]

A bigger/improved throttle body or bigger MAF door, basically doing anything upstream of the plenum will net you a 0-horsepower gain at the wheels because you still have the fixed size opening in the plenum.

The Toyota ECU is really your limiting factor here because in essence it’s really just a emissions device. That would be the first thing I would want to get rid of.
I think that even if you just did a simple MicroSquirt system and built a coil on plug setup and went from batch fire to sequential and really spent your time tuning it I bet you could definitely pick up some MPG and maybe even some power. And once you have said system to control it the turbo is the easy part. Tons of room on the engine bay.

Of course no one will do this because “scary wiring”, the required effort, innovation, work, etc

It would seem that programming the new system would be the biggest deterrent no? Most people on here could wire it up, but getting the right tune on the engine is a whole different ball game.