Yep, 5858 is pretty small be careful in closed loop.
Builds TURBO KIT INSTALL 96 LX450 CXRACING and CUSTOM (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter mario65
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- #82
It’s all together and runs great but the lean condition is not acceptable. I’m concerned there’s people with a turbo probably running lean in part throttle. That can do some serious damage. The closed loop management is strong and appears keep it at stoic up to 2psi which isnt going to work. I have an adjustable rising rate regulator I’m going to install and I’m hoping to have it come in at 5” of vacuum and up. If it won’t keep it in the 12-13s above the 5”s, I’m going to get the Split Second enricher to manipulate the o2s signal to the ecu to get the afrs where I want. Both corrections should work. Both aren’t too expensive. A piggy back or full ecu swap is just too much of a hassle and I don’t want to go there. If I can manage the afrs it’s going to be awesome.
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I wouldn't think stoich would hurt it at 2psi.
Huh really? A 58mm turbo is too small causing you to be in closed loop? Who would have guessed.... lol
The stock fuel pressure regulator is rising rate. Are you going to go to something like a 2:1-3:1 rising rate regulator?
O2 manipulation will work but if you need to add more than 19% fueling you’ll get a check engine light due to fuel trims being high compared to the load table.
The stock fuel pressure regulator is rising rate. Are you going to go to something like a 2:1-3:1 rising rate regulator?
O2 manipulation will work but if you need to add more than 19% fueling you’ll get a check engine light due to fuel trims being high compared to the load table.
- Thread starter
- #85
The pending correction is part throttle not full throttle. LOL
Full throttle in due time.
The size of the turbo will not effect the loop status in the part throttle range,
Id rather have this 5858 fast spooling BB turbo than any of the oversized slow journals I've seen people are running.
This is the perfect turbo for 10psi. Its rated at 600HP Ill never get anywhere near there.
The FPR is rising rate with both the target for its activation and rise being adjustable.
www.maxgms.com
Enricher
Ill never get to 19% but thanks for the info.
Full throttle in due time.
The size of the turbo will not effect the loop status in the part throttle range,
Id rather have this 5858 fast spooling BB turbo than any of the oversized slow journals I've seen people are running.
This is the perfect turbo for 10psi. Its rated at 600HP Ill never get anywhere near there.
The FPR is rising rate with both the target for its activation and rise being adjustable.
Blip Speed VRG FMU - Blip Speed Motorsports
Product Overview When you need more fuel flow to maintain the correct air/fuel ratio the Blip Speed VRG fuel pressure regulator is an ideal alternative to expensive ECU or fuel injector changes. This type of regulator is also referred to as a FMU (Fuel Management Unit) or Rising Rate Regulator...
www.maxgms.com
Enricher
Ill never get to 19% but thanks for the info.
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Incorrect. It absolutely will effect closed loop. Open loop is the condition of full throttle.
If it wouldn't effect closed loop, how do you think I predicted you would have issues with closed loop back on the first page?
And reminded you on this page
Sure a 58mm is great. I have one. But I also have a standalone computer to correct for fuel and ignition. Hopefully your regulator works.
If it wouldn't effect closed loop, how do you think I predicted you would have issues with closed loop back on the first page?
And reminded you on this page
Sure a 58mm is great. I have one. But I also have a standalone computer to correct for fuel and ignition. Hopefully your regulator works.
The pending correction is part throttle not full throttle. LOL
Full throttle in due time.
The size of the turbo will not effect the loop status in the part throttle range,
Id rather have this 5858 fast spooling BB turbo than any of the oversized slow journals I've seen people are running.
This is the perfect turbo for 10psi. Its rated at 600HP Ill never get anywhere near there.
The FPR is rising rate with both the target for its activation and rise being adjustable.
Blip Speed VRG FMU - Blip Speed Motorsports
Product Overview When you need more fuel flow to maintain the correct air/fuel ratio the Blip Speed VRG fuel pressure regulator is an ideal alternative to expensive ECU or fuel injector changes. This type of regulator is also referred to as a FMU (Fuel Management Unit) or Rising Rate Regulator...
Enricher
Ill never get to 19% but thanks for the info.
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- Thread starter
- #87
You predicted it because most people are using an over sized slow spooling turbo on a stock ECU and I won't.
Its proven you can use one of those slow spoolers and maintain near proper fueling at part throttle in closed loop.
It will take fuel management to use a fast spooling turbo. I am more than ok with that.
Id much rather spool quick stay closed loop and manipulate the FP/ECU to manage it.
I don't know if one or both of the fixes will do the job but I do know it will work.
Looking forward to the testing.
Its proven you can use one of those slow spoolers and maintain near proper fueling at part throttle in closed loop.
It will take fuel management to use a fast spooling turbo. I am more than ok with that.
Id much rather spool quick stay closed loop and manipulate the FP/ECU to manage it.
I don't know if one or both of the fixes will do the job but I do know it will work.
Looking forward to the testing.
Most people are doing it because it works. And the stall on the torque converter is 1800rpms. How many turbo'd 80's have you driven?
I have tried to give constructive criticism because I was where you are 4+ years ago, but I will let you work it through.
I have tried to give constructive criticism because I was where you are 4+ years ago, but I will let you work it through.
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Little ride video
Wow that’s pretty quick!
Oh boy, now you’v done it! You offended the resident turbo on 80 God.
Spoiling a little slow is Ok, even with stock gear and 35s the 80 cruises at 2000 rpm at 55pmh so most of the time our motor will be between 2100 and 3500 rpm during easy around town driving anyways. These aren’t big diesel motors that like 20+ PSI at 1800 rpm.
Speaking of small turbos on gas engines, my old 535 had similar sized turbos for a 3.0 engine and it had TWO them and advanced computer and direct injection with high pressure fuel pump. Even with that setup turbo doesn’t really kicking till 3000 rpm.
In theory I see what you are trying to do but I agree with @scottryana that the turbo size needs to match the engine size and computer’s ability to adjust fueling. The poor 80’s computer from the early 90s won’t be able to adjust fast enough for changes a fast spooling turbo would bring on. Try to make a call or do Instagram on a 1997 cell phone, just saying!
- Thread starter
- #91
The info is all appreciated and received. I trust the wideband and believe Ill get a correctly fueled 80 using the stock ECU. The ECU is doing a good job as it was programmed to do and that doesn't mean its too old to manage the system with the right fuel manipulation.
In the end anyone using a turbo on one of these needs to know how well the split sec enricher and 2025 FMU help to manage the fuel. I don't see anyone trying it on an 80 but I see plenty of examples on similar systems. The 2 mods are cheap and beat the crap out of going piggy back or ECUs swap.
I don't know for sure but Id bet alot of those cracked manifolds, blown head gaskets, etc were on 80s running lean in part throttle.
When Im done it will be right one way or the other.
In the end anyone using a turbo on one of these needs to know how well the split sec enricher and 2025 FMU help to manage the fuel. I don't see anyone trying it on an 80 but I see plenty of examples on similar systems. The 2 mods are cheap and beat the crap out of going piggy back or ECUs swap.
I don't know for sure but Id bet alot of those cracked manifolds, blown head gaskets, etc were on 80s running lean in part throttle.
When Im done it will be right one way or the other.
I am not offended like @Qball says I am simply trying to save you some time considering there is a large history here. I know this forum is not easy to search, and many of the turbo threads get abandoned after people do not get the results they expected. I recommended the exact same path that you are taking with a URD O2 Sensor Calibrator and the URD 7th injector Controller to a member "LilEvo" (Builds - DIY FJZ80 Low Budget Turbo Build) who turbo'd his 80 and then had the same issue you are having in closed loop. He instead tried to adjust fueling using a larger MAF scaled with larger injectors and eventually abandoned the 80 all together after never getting it right.
www.urdusa.com
The problem with O2 sensor calibrators and injector controllers is you are 1/2 way to a decent standalone and then you can have full control of fueling and more importantly ignition timing. You do not have to do an ECU swap you run the standalone in parallel with the stock ECU so it retains all functions except fueling and ignition.
I don't know of any turbo 80s that have cracked manifolds, except for the Safari turbo systems that came with a unichip that was programmed for the ADM not the USDM and caused lean issues.
You keep saying part throttle but really it is closed loop. It is the MAF calculating load based off of air flow and RPM's, the computer injecting the programmed fuel amount by pulse width timing the injectors, the narrow band O2 sensor reading the exhaust and telling the computer if it is in stoch or not and then the computer changing the short term and long term fuel trims to the point the narrow band reads in range. If the front O2 is good and the injectors are good it is virtually impossible to run lean in stock NA form. And then in open loop the computer dumps massive amounts of fuel running richer than 10:1 while NA. It is that open loop exploitation that allows us to run turbos on stock ECU's. (As long as they are not going into positive manifold pressure before open loop
)
I have spent thousands of my own dollars, dyno'ing, datalogging, and playing with turbo's on the USDM 80 platform. Might your solution work for your expected low boost setup? Sure, and I even recommended the O2 and 7th injector for a low cost solution, but I am also telling you what I know works for a fact.
URD O2 Sensor Calibrator - Underdog Racing Development
The URD O2 Sensor Calibrator will allow enrichment of the fuel mixture while the engine’s ECU is operating in closed-loop mode. It is ideal for stock engines that have been converted to forced induction. Please download the URD U-Tune Guide for an explanation of closed-loop operation. When the...
www.urdusa.com
URD Additional Injector Controller / Timing Calibrator
Applications 5VZ-FE 3.4L V6 1MZ-FE 3.0L V6 2RZ-FE 2.4L I4 3RZ-FE 2.7L I4 The URD AIC/T is an additional injector controller with timing retard control that is ideally suited for a 3.4L 5VZ-FE V6 that has been converted to forced induction. It is a highly reliable end-user tunable unit and is...
www.urdusa.com
The problem with O2 sensor calibrators and injector controllers is you are 1/2 way to a decent standalone and then you can have full control of fueling and more importantly ignition timing. You do not have to do an ECU swap you run the standalone in parallel with the stock ECU so it retains all functions except fueling and ignition.
I don't know of any turbo 80s that have cracked manifolds, except for the Safari turbo systems that came with a unichip that was programmed for the ADM not the USDM and caused lean issues.
You keep saying part throttle but really it is closed loop. It is the MAF calculating load based off of air flow and RPM's, the computer injecting the programmed fuel amount by pulse width timing the injectors, the narrow band O2 sensor reading the exhaust and telling the computer if it is in stoch or not and then the computer changing the short term and long term fuel trims to the point the narrow band reads in range. If the front O2 is good and the injectors are good it is virtually impossible to run lean in stock NA form. And then in open loop the computer dumps massive amounts of fuel running richer than 10:1 while NA. It is that open loop exploitation that allows us to run turbos on stock ECU's. (As long as they are not going into positive manifold pressure before open loop
)I have spent thousands of my own dollars, dyno'ing, datalogging, and playing with turbo's on the USDM 80 platform. Might your solution work for your expected low boost setup? Sure, and I even recommended the O2 and 7th injector for a low cost solution, but I am also telling you what I know works for a fact.
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- Thread starter
- #94
I climbed under and changed the fuel filter and added a banjo bolt with a shrader valve to monitor FP. I installed the F2025 FMU. It makes a difference adding fuel immediately in moderate throttle. AFRs drop to 12-13's but within seconds the ECU catches up and pulls fuel to get back to stoic. It would do the job probably just fine with a slower spooling turbo. This is below 3#. It never comes out of closed loop which is expected. The enricher will be necessary to manage the closed loop AFR below 5" of vacuum and into light boost. The enricher should arrive by next weekend.
Why not go stand alone ecu?
alia176
SILVER Star
I'd like to see pics of your FMU install and what did you do with the oem FPR?
Are you sure about that? having multiple adjustment devices work and need to adjust independently is far more pain in the rear and God forbid your condition change. Standalone is one and done with all the setting managed centrally, as an engineer I absolutely HATE having disparate things work independently and I have to mickey mouse them together. That never goes well, centralize and standardize is the only way to get anything to work and make sure it continues to work.
Running HPTuner on my supercharged Tacoma now. It’s amazing having adjustment with one device. Now, the ecu on the 80 has to be replaced with a Haltech or something. I get that. I'm pretty sure we've had a discussion about Boomslang | Automotive Wire Harness Manufacturing Abilities and Services making a harness for the 1fz and Haltech.
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- #100
I want to be sure the enhancer won't work. I like what is see with factory ecu and a little manipulation will go a long way and I don't need a headache. if this works to control AFR in part throttle closed loop Im going to happy and finished in no time.
I can tell it at what inches of vacuum to come in and i have a dial to dial in how much i want to lie to the ECU on the O2 reading. IF i can get it to be solid in the low 13s except WOT and cruising ill be happy. The FPR will control WOT open loop and the ECU will manage stoic cruising. Atleast that's what the math says. well see
The FPR is in and was easy. It was much harder to put that fuel filter in. Whoever designed that needs to be shot.
I can tell it at what inches of vacuum to come in and i have a dial to dial in how much i want to lie to the ECU on the O2 reading. IF i can get it to be solid in the low 13s except WOT and cruising ill be happy. The FPR will control WOT open loop and the ECU will manage stoic cruising. Atleast that's what the math says. well see
The FPR is in and was easy. It was much harder to put that fuel filter in. Whoever designed that needs to be shot.
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