Turbo 3B vs 13-BT

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Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. ~Author unknown, attributed to Mark Twain

Inspite of this good advice I will battle on regardless, but where to start?

It's not a piece of paper that I'm lording over you, it's knowledge and experience, if you were a clever little cookie you'd try and take some of that knowledge in.

On the topic of confusing fact with opinion, here's a fact, I was comparing a turbo'd 3B to a 13B-T, not a 13B-T to a 3B, and even more amusingly a 3B to a 3BII (that one gave me a really good laugh and help put this whole thing in context). To put this to bed here is a short list of facts as to how a 13B-T is superior to a turbo'd 3B (And I will repeat myself "A short list")
*Better engine longevity
*Better fuel economy
*More power (all things being equal that is eg. turbo size and boost run, fuel settings etc..)
Stop picking a pointless fight and wasting everybodies time, the only near valid point you had was parts, which isn't really valid when comparing which engine is superior by design, it comes under that heading of other contributing factors as to why you would turbo your 3B, it has nothing to do with comparing engine design. As for parts anyway, If you didn't notice the original poster doesn't live next door to you, He lives in Brisbane where parts for both engines are plentyful.

On the voltage front, again not really an issue as we don't generally see many crusiers with a 24V system. So not an issue.

To explain in depth why one is better than the other would take more time and energy then I have, for the love of god there are literally thousands of textbooks written about desiel engine design, do you really think I could cover enough bases in one post to prevent some turkey finding some tiny and irrelevant point to argue? if you take nothing else out of what I have posted take hed of this-

"A 13B-T IS DESIGNED TO RUN ON A FORCED AIR INDUCTION, A 3B IS NOT, IT IS DESIGNED TO RECIEVE AIR AT ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE, WHICH ONE DO YOU THINK IS BETTER SUITED TO A FORCED AIR INDUCTION SYSTEM?"

:bang::bang::bang::bang::bang:
 
Yoh, BJ42, what experience do you have? you are talking big here but what exactly is your credentials?

first, is has been a proven fact, in Canada, that a DI engine DOES NOT return better fuel milage. so far over the last 8 years of running both the IDI and the DI the DI is return 6 mpg POORER fuel milage and this is for the 13BT, 12HT and the HDT. this is not just my experience this is a general feedback from numerous persons that have owned both. so that point is mute. bye bye.

second, how does the 13BT rate for longevitiy before rebuild? how many have you rebuilt and what was the cause of failure? how many km was on the engine?

third, how many 3Bs with turbos added have you rebuilt? how many km were on the engine before being turbo'd? how was the engine treated once the trubo was added? how many km were on the engine at time of rebuild? what was the reason for failure?

all things can not be equal and the point of this thread was not to make them equal. the point of the thread was to compare the 3B-T to the 13BT, not to bring the 3B-T down to the 13BT's level. the compression will be higher in the 3B-T, naturaly. the performance will be as strong if not stronger with the 3B-T than the 13BT.

fourth, books are books written by humans for the reason of? edumacation, profit, supply and demand, glory. the internet is popular because? (the same reasons) but not all that is on the net OR IN PRINT is based on real world experience, is it?

since you are baning your head on the wall, take the time to list the EXPERIENCE that you process that makes you so much better than the rest of us poor hillbillys.
(you know, simple little things like:
worked as a toyota engineer for 30 years? or
i run an engine rebuild shop?
or whatever glory hole experience you pocess...)
 
I have to admit my 13B-T isnt really the best on fuel. No arguments from me.
 
That video does have false info, according to my manual and the crappy Max Ellery manual, 13B-T and 3B have same rods and piston oil coolers, enough with this comparison, IM DONE.
I do prefer the glo screen though , less parts. Aussies dont know everything.
 
Should this thread be in the diesel seaction......................



Pot stirring and LOL.....


Rob
 
crushers said:
Yoh, BJ42, what experience do you have? you are talking big here but what exactly is your credentials?

first, is has been a proven fact, in Canada, that a DI engine DOES NOT return better fuel milage. so far over the last 8 years of running both the IDI and the DI the DI is return 6 mpg POORER fuel milage and this is for the 13BT, 12HT and the HDT. this is not just my experience this is a general feedback from numerous persons that have owned both. so that point is mute. bye bye.

second, how does the 13BT rate for longevitiy before rebuild? how many have you rebuilt and what was the cause of failure? how many km was on the engine?

third, how many 3Bs with turbos added have you rebuilt? how many km were on the engine before being turbo'd? how was the engine treated once the trubo was added? how many km were on the engine at time of rebuild? what was the reason for failure?

all things can not be equal and the point of this thread was not to make them equal. the point of the thread was to compare the 3B-T to the 13BT, not to bring the 3B-T down to the 13BT's level. the compression will be higher in the 3B-T, naturaly. the performance will be as strong if not stronger with the 3B-T than the 13BT.

fourth, books are books written by humans for the reason of? edumacation, profit, supply and demand, glory. the internet is popular because? (the same reasons) but not all that is on the net OR IN PRINT is based on real world experience, is it?

since you are baning your head on the wall, take the time to list the EXPERIENCE that you process that makes you so much better than the rest of us poor hillbillys.
(you know, simple little things like:
worked as a toyota engineer for 30 years? or
i run an engine rebuild shop?
or whatever glory hole experience you pocess...)
Click to expand...


Amen Brother. Oh yeah I will be taking advice from Bee-jay on further post NOT!!
 
YOU (SUPPOSEDLY) RUN A REBUILD SHOP AND YOU CAN'T MAKE THE CORRELATION BETWEEN INCREASED CYLINDER PRESSURES AND SHORTENED ENGINE LIFE! SWEET JESUS I HOPE YOU DON'T HAVE MOUTHS TO FEED.

Your really hanging onto this compression rope aren't you, generally higher compression does equal better efficency, but these two engines do not have to same internals (but a man of your great experience in the real world would have know that), you have an engine with dual chambers that you are now forcing additional air into.

I can give you any creadential you like, it's as easy as typing on a keyboard (you've proven that already), what would I have to say to change your mind on this matter? I designed the 13B-T, I own the toyota company? You've made the decision that every text book every written was done so for a sinister purpose and that your (claimed) experience is the one and only truth (you sound a bit like a religous leader). I will finish this post by stating the one fact that no one as yet has been able to refute.

"A 13B-T IS DESIGNED TO RUN ON A FORCED AIR INDUCTION, A 3B IS NOT, IT IS DESIGNED TO RECIEVE AIR AT ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE, WHICH ONE DO YOU THINK IS BETTER SUITED TO A FORCED AIR INDUCTION SYSTEM?"
 
Braveheart quote: "answer the fawking questions"




the answer to your lame question will be answered as you answer the above questions.
 
Hmm a very interesting read this has been!

I have to agree with BJ that an engine that has been designed from the factory to handle a turbo has to be superior than an engine that hasnt, but has an aftermarket item bolted on.

Can anyone confirm whether the rods are infact bigger on the 13bt than the 3b because i cant see the guy in the video just picking up a random rod and saying it is out of a 3b when it is not?? And also confirmation about the oil coolers. If they are different then i see this discussion is closed because the 13bt DOES have stronger internals and added cooling to handle the turbo of which the 3b doesnt. But if not then im stumped at why it is called a 13BT rather than a 3BT. (and im sure terrain tamer would have at least seen a 3b rod to be able to stock them and sell them)

So basically if you can get a 13bt factory then get it
But if you have a 3b already then turboing the 3b is more economical than doing a 13bt engine conversion. And if you were keen on an engine conversion then other engines are more viable such as the 14bt 15bt 1HZ or 1HZ+turbo!
 
both the 3B and the 13BT have oil coolers.

both share the same water pumps

both share the same crank

both share the same oil pump

different pistons
different rods

both share the same con rod big end bearings



so, if the con rod bearings are the same, then the impact or load resistance is the same for both.

and again, how many 3B-Ts have died and after examination what was the cause? how many 13BTs have died and after examination, what was the cause?

without proper data BJs question is mute.

both are strong and reliable engines...

and Gib, why would you suggest a turbo 1HZ since the HDT is available? the turbo 1HZ will (by your and BJs theories) be weaker...

in the end, it isn't the engine that is the problem, it is the owner/driver that has the potential to kill ANY engine... or make it last 500,000 km.
 
Shouldn't this be in the diesel section.................



MEH...




This is making for good entertainment boys.

Thanks
Rob
 
anything to make you and John smile...

BTW, nice score with hooking up with John, he has a lot of good knowledge...
 
I for one find beejay highly entertaining. I always like people that use caps to make a point, since everyone knows that typing in caps gives one credibility.
Furthermore, it is always wonderful to see someone with no record of giving advice dismiss people like wayne and michael, who have been helping out here successfully for many years. Why go with proven expertise when you can have arrogance instead?

BEE-JAY42 said:
"A 13B-T IS DESIGNED TO RUN ON A FORCED AIR INDUCTION, A 3B IS NOT, IT IS DESIGNED TO RECIEVE AIR AT ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE, WHICH ONE DO YOU THINK IS BETTER SUITED TO A FORCED AIR INDUCTION SYSTEM?"
Click to expand...

This I like especially. I suspect that is also the reason why the 2LT is so superior over the 2L, right beejay?
:D
j
 
ummm, yah, the old 13BT in ol'smokey died at 340,000 km...poor old girl lasted roughly a year on Canadian soil...

why did it die?
abuse.
 
I think BJ isnt disputing the fact that a turbo 3B cant be reliable or last a long time, he is just stating that an engine designed for a turbo is better than one that is not. And i agree with you all that it is down to the owner, how the engine is treated and how often it is serviced etc that has the biggest effect on its longetivity. But you still cant dispute the process of design is different for both these engines

Cant say ive ever heard of a HDT before? I only suggested a 1HZ+turbo because it is just plain cool (even though it probably wont last as long as a NA 1HZ)
 
BJ stated a number of incorrect "facts" that he gleened from the net.
BJ stated the above misunderstanding that you are agreeing to, there is no proof that the 13BT is better than a 3B-T so then we have to go with verifiable data of death and destruction.

which we do not have, so it seems.

so to make a claim based on assumstions is not correct.

as Jan pointed out, Toyota designed the 2LT/2LTE as a turbo engine over the 2L... and they have been proven to be unreliable, fuel thirsty and gutless. this is the best example of why the above statement is not neccessarily based in fact.

till there is facts to play with then this discussion is really mute.
 
crushers said:
anything to make you and John smile...

BTW, nice score with hooking up with John, he has a lot of good knowledge...
Click to expand...

Ya..... I learned a ton from John, very talented mechanic with a head full of knowledge.


I figure I learned a lot from him while he might of learned a bit from me.

All in all we both were lucky to have worked together.

Now back to the disscussion at hand.......


Rob
 
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