Trying to get this 2F to run well (1 Viewer)

CenTXFJ60

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Long tine lurker first time to post (JK :) ). All seriousness...bought this 85 60 last summer. It’s 100 % bone stock and has 140ish in all cylinders. One thing I’m not is a mechanic. I have a few resources and have built some motors, but diognosing engine performance is not my specialty. Plan to keep this motor smogged so I can register it at our place in CO. The truck sat for 5 years prior to picking it up in June. Put in a clean used tank (blew out the lines), new filter, a new JimC carb (1000 Miles) that I took off another truck, JB welded some pinholes in the air rail, replaced many stiff/questionable vacuum lines, put in a used distributor with a working vacuum advance, new cap/rotor and a used catalytic converter out of a parts truck. No guarantee the converter is working well but it’s not all crusty like the other one. Attached is a video of the vacuum. Would like some feedback on where it’s sitting. When cold the motor has a serious hesitation. Goes away for the most part once warm. I did adjust the valves as well as advanced the timing so it would stop backfiring. It’s set well past the 7 (I believe that’s the #) degree mark recommended in the FSM. Also, I ran it for about 20 min and temps hold well etc. but the exhaust smells really bad like trucks I’ve had that were desmogged with the catalytic converter removed. I welcome any thoughts/suggestions as I have zero experience with smogged systems. Thanks. Jimmy
 

Seth S

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One of those sounds might be the power steering pump. It sounds like you might have an exhaust manifold leak or quite possibly one of the many EGR connections could be leaking.

if your base timing had to be advanced to stop back firing that’s a problem. Any chance you are off one tooth on the distributor?

Lately it seems like the common issue is manifold leaks or carb gasket/insulator leaks. I know I did everything set to spec and still had issues. Then after finally biting the bullet and redoing everything in the intake and exhaust it all works.
 

NeverGiveUpYota

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So it’s in CO? What’s the elevation where it’s running in the video? Looks like the vac is around 17/18?
Once warm it warms it loses the hesitation... so stepping on gas it doesn’t quite go like you’d hope initially? Super stinky gas... are you running to rich? Carb?
Seth makes a good point on the power steering... and egr.
@OSS is great at all that sleuthing.
 

fjc-man

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Why don’t you see if you can get a reprint like mine from specteroffroad.com, except for your 1985 2F. I think I paid like 26 bucks for mine. It would definitely help you understand and diagnose the emissions components.
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CenTXFJ60

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One of those sounds might be the power steering pump. It sounds like you might have an exhaust manifold leak or quite possibly one of the many EGR connections could be leaking.

if your base timing had to be advanced to stop back firing that’s a problem. Any chance you are off one tooth on the distributor?

Lately it seems like the common issue is manifold leaks or carb gasket/insulator leaks. I know I did everything set to spec and still had issues. Then after finally biting the bullet and redoing everything in the intake and exhaust it all works.
Seth, interesting point about the power steering. There are definitely issues there that I have not addressed yet. When I drive it there’s a whining going on but I’m very familiar with what to do there. Fairly confident there’s not an intake leak as I’ve sprayed carb cleaner all over the intake side while running and there’s no change in the idle. Exhaust leak is something I feel needs to be verified. Any tips for determining this. I’ve reset a number of distributors and familiar with having a tooth alignment issue. Could be wrong but have dropped it one tooth each way and results are much worse. Is the vacuum sitting stable in the 17 psi range acceptable? Also, should it drop when I hit the gas before it rebounds? I appreciate the feedback and keep the thoughts coming. Jimmy
 

CenTXFJ60

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So it’s in CO? What’s the elevation where it’s running in the video? Looks like the vac is around 17/18?
Once warm it warms it loses the hesitation... so stepping on gas it doesn’t quite go like you’d hope initially? Super stinky gas... are you running to rich? Carb?
Seth makes a good point on the power steering... and egr.
@OSS is great at all that sleuthing.
So Felicity, this video is at my shop in TX (1100’). It will reside in Fort Collins (5000’) once sorted out. The carb is basically brand new and came off a well tuned/great running 60 that was swapped out for a fuel injection system. I did not pickle around with any adjustments. Plug in play. What’s the EGR?.. I know the term just not certain what the part looks like. I did swap out the bulky piece on the forward part of the air rail as the original one was rusted out. Thanks for your input. Jimmy
 

NeverGiveUpYota

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Higher elevation will lend a lower vac reading.

as I tagged him, OSS is GREAT on EGR stuff, me not at all. I’m desmogged. But he’s written some great threads on chunks of carbon in egr components. Other than that I’m a waste of time.

So the truck hesitates as you step on the gas and then stuttersto life? Like your not getting gas nice and steady to the carb? It’s being choked? Have you pulled the line from fuel pump going up to carb and seen how it pushes fuel into a jug?
 

CenTXFJ60

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Why don’t you see if you can get a reprint like mine from specteroffroad.com, except for your 1985 2F. I think I paid like 26 bucks for mine. It would definitely help you understand and diagnose the emissions components.View attachment 2486813
Man you’re making me work for this :). I do have this book in the attached picture but those who know me know my ADD keeps me from doing the smart thing and referencing the material. If you look at the diagnostics page it points to insufficient fuel flow as a potential I’ve thought about this as a possible issue and need to dig deeper on this. Knowing the original tank was toast there could still be some garbage in the system. Really appreciate your feedback. Jimmy
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CenTXFJ60

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Higher elevation will lend a lower vac reading.

as I tagged him, OSS is GREAT on EGR stuff, me not at all. I’m desmogged. But he’s written some great threads on chunks of carbon in egr components. Other than that I’m a waste of time.

So the truck hesitates as you step on the gas and then stuttersto life? Like your not getting gas nice and steady to the carb? It’s being choked? Have you pulled the line from fuel pump going up to carb and seen how it pushes fuel into a jug?
Have not verified the fuel pressure but agree this needs verifying. Good call
 
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I’d go through the tests for the EGR. If you’re keeping the truck long term, I’d pull the egr apart and clean the carbon out.

Aside from your vac gauge, do you have handheld vacuum tester, like a mityvac? One of these is very useful for testing function of vacuum components.
 

Seth S

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Interestingly I didn't realize just how badly my EGR had been leaking until I removed it during my desmog. I found the pipe that attaches to the rear exhaust horn was leaking, the pipe that connects to the cooler down on the block was leaking, and I found some of the connections up near the manifold were loose.

1604582175171.png


My leaks were in these circles. I could hear them and when I took it apart I was able to see all the black soot surrounding the area

1604582311702.png
 

CenTXFJ60

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Interestingly I didn't realize just how badly my EGR had been leaking until I removed it during my desmog. I found the pipe that attaches to the rear exhaust horn was leaking, the pipe that connects to the cooler down on the block was leaking, and I found some of the connections up near the manifold were loose.

View attachment 2486991

My leaks were in these circles. I could hear them and when I took it apart I was able to see all the black soot surrounding the area

View attachment 2486993
Good to know Seth. I will definitely check these areas as well as clean the EGR filter as @FJACS stated above. Was reading the manual last night and saw that’s a fairly easy step.
 

NeverGiveUpYota

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And also I’ll add, thought of it after I commented last night... tho Jim rebuilt the carb, your acc plunger should be good abd not sticking but pretty sure hesitation can also be pinpointed to that potential. Was the carb sitting for awhile? Maybe the leather around the plunger is sticking because it dried out.
 

g-man

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So you put a Jim C carb on a smogged engine? I thought Jim C modified the carb with diff sized jets to run on a desmogged engine. Wouldn't that be running to rich?

Did you check to make sure the fuel cut solenoid is working? that can make stalls, backfires and hesitation at idle.

I've cleared my EGR in the past by tapping on the side of it with a hammer while at high idle. If you do this make sure your air filter and gaskets are in position in the air cleaner. First check to make sure no carbon is present in the bottom of the air cleaner. After you hit it a few times check again and see if carbon bits are found in the air cleaner.

Does the truck make power ie running up hills? Make sure you don't have miss. Take a timing gun and clip it on each spark plug wire one at a time to make sure you don't have a broken plug wire. Alternately you could pull each spark plug and check for spark.

remember air,fuel, timing, and compression make a motor run. So vacuum leak, fuel delivery problem, timing or miss, and compression which you've already checked.
 

ToyotaMatt

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Man you’re making me work for this :). I do have this book in the attached picture but those who know me know my ADD keeps me from doing the smart thing and referencing the material. If you look at the diagnostics page it points to insufficient fuel flow as a potential I’ve thought about this as a possible issue and need to dig deeper on this. Knowing the original tank was toast there could still be some garbage in the system. Really appreciate your feedback. JimmyView attachment 2486839View attachment 2486840



Don't fret Jimmy , your not alone if we can hold it in our hands and it smells & feels like real " Toyota Materials Distribution " Vintage JDM Print Media ,.....

then any symptom's can be smoked out and any level of correction / repair is possible ,.....:)


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DFXR

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As others have said, a stuck or malfunctioning EGR valve can cause hesitation at take off in 1st and 2nd. I have definitely experienced it as have a lot of 60 owners. Usually right in that 1500-2500 RPM zone.

If you want to temporarily bypass the EGR to either rule it out or rule it in, you can disconnect the vac line going from the EGR vacuum modulator to the top of the EGR valve and put a golf tee in it. I leave the vac modulator side connected and tee off the vac line on the EGR valve side. Then swap the two vac lines at the distributor vacuum advance and see how it runs. If the hesitation goes away you've likely narrowed it down to the EGR. Then the fun really starts!

One variable for you - I have always done this with my base timing somewhere between 7 (BB) and 9 degrees. With your timing advanced more than that you might get some pinging under load, esp with 87 octane.
 

mattressking

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I'm all for diagnosing but for a smogged motor that hasn't had much known maintenance I'd pull the manifold off and put a new gasket it in and start fresh with new vac lines and verifying each VSV, VTV and distributor advance vacuum functionality. There's so many nuances that it's best to tear down and refresh all at once. You can chase the EGR hesitations but there are many possibilities for incorrect routing and broken/leaking vacuum ports. Once its apart and you're reassembling I'd also check carb condition, ports, linkage condition.

You're a good wrench but this one definitely can cause you to pull your hair out at the same time. Buzz me anytime too.
 

Zjohnsonua

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I'll second @mattressking, Jim. Get 'er plumbed per factory build, and then get the maintenance caught up. Repairs can come after as needed.

The manual wants the 2F to run at 19 inHg w/ 7* base timing. Then again, I know of several 2Fs (including my own two) that run like tops at 17 inHg and 10* around here (sub-3k ft). At altitude (8k+ ft) you'll appreciate a bump to 11 or 12*. That'll boost your intake vacuum a bit as well.
 

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