So, this question has been asked a million times by a million people with a million different sets of parameters. I figure I'd just start my own thread to pick some brains, so I'll cut to the chase.
Long story short, the 2F is old and slow and leaky and getting hard to source parts for. It's served me incredibly well for the ten years and 40k I've had the truck for, but I'm gearing up to refresh/replace the whole running gear from flywheel to hubs, so it seems like getting the motor's life cycle reset in one way or another is the next obvious step, and I'd be insane not to want some more power and torque if I'm going to do anything beyond replacing gaskets and a carb rebuild.
I also did a lot of soul-searching, and a V8 growl would change the character of the truck in ways I don't like. I want *something* with a V8, but not my 60. Meanwhile, I have the demented idea that going even further towards 'street-legal tractor' with a civilized diesel would be way more in character. I also, y'know, want more range and torque off of idle etc., and that easily pushes things towards 'diesel swap' versus a 2F rebuild or any gas engine swap (possible exception: 2FE build if the right core and combo of time/space fall into my lap). Still, important to remember that the #1 goal is future-proofing and picking the most fun/personally satisfying way to solve 'sad tired engine' which is remotely in-budget in the next couple of years: I'm not chasing big dyno numbers or MPG or turbo whine. All that stuff is neat, but I'm trying to keep the truck I'm already mostly happy with running, make it better at what it does already, and check off a few dorky bucket list items like having something that can burn biodiesel/WVO.
The truck is thoroughly a second vehicle, since I got a little manual subaru for grocery trips, but I like to/want to keep using the 60 for *whole* trips. That includes the drive around the hometown to stock up before leaving, the hours/days on the interstate (without needing to shout to have a conversation with, ideally, the cute gal in the passenger seat), all fast food drive through stops along the way, and then camping/wheeling/exploring until it's time to go home. Right now, the truck does all of that stuff okay (but has ~2 decades of deferred maintenance making it temperamental), and I don't want to spend thousands on something that makes me lose ground on any core competency, if you know what I mean.
I figure I can't settle for anything slower than a fresh 2F, or anything considerably louder/shakier/heavier like a 4BT (even if I'd love one for a dedicated crawler/ranch truck that doesn't have to pound pavement for hours on end), and I don't want anything with worse 2020-30+ prospects for parts availability than the 2F. Kind of picky, right?
I also have limited space/tool availability, so I'm also trying to minimize any/all custom fab work and anything else that would mean having to test fit a whole engine twenty times over six months. I can use a family friend's garage for a few weeks at a time, but that's five hours away. I can imagine doing a mostly bolt-in swap there, but probably nothing that takes a ton of fab-heavy trial and error. But, maybe I'll get lucky and find a place with a good work space when my current lease is up next May. Hard to predict, and I'd like to plan for worse workspace than I actually end up having than the alternative and be completely screwed and stuck with a half-finished truck when something doesn't go as smoothly as planned.
So, even pickier still is my 'want' list, but it might make some of my thinking/goals clearer:
- I want more power and torque than my tired, tired 2F. It's almost enough, with gearing, though, so anywhere past a rebuilt, cleaned up 2F is going to be gravy.
- I want easier/more reliable starts in cold weather and better running over wide altitude range.
- I want long highway trips to not make me consider earplugs and not feel like I'm idling a cement truck when I'm in line at a drive-through.
- I want to use the H55f (with 2F input shaft) I'm installing this winter/spring with a minimum of modification/adaption. New bellhousing seems fine, though. A great engine would also justify selling the cleaned up 2F/H55f to pay for something like an NV4500, but it'd have to solve a LOT of problems vs. adapting the H55.
- I want to be able to get parts for as long as possible from as podunk a source as possible, but super reliable/kinda rare is better than a problematic motor that's easy to feed parts to.
- I don't want to change my SUA OME suspension, if possible, although I'd also maybe think about converting to 80-series coils and axles with Trail Tailor's kit on the same timeframe as a swap, which might get a little room for a borderline too-tall engine.
- Like I alluded to, I want to be able to run biodiesel and/or WVO without huge mods to keep from clogging things up. This also overlaps with "maybe I'd like to be able to run ditch-grade diesel on an international trip someday?"
- I live in a place without emissions testing and my parents will for the foreseeable future, too. I'd like to take advantage of not needing EGR or silliness like DEF or the headaches with common rail/newer diesels if I'm 'adding' the complexity of a turbo to my setup in exchange for not worrying about a carb any more.
- Cheaper = sooner, and good enough and sooner = me just enjoying the truck sooner, so price is a big consideration, otherwise I'd just be 'obvious' and save up for a 1HD-T...
-- Note: this means I'm probably going to have to find a used/low miles/good compression running engine, or maybe do most of the labor on a rebuild if I start with a cheap core, but I'd really need to be convinced that I was getting a lot for my time/money vs. a used engine that I can rebuild after a few years of use.
So, here are some of the top contenders with pros/cons that I've thought of so far:
Non-Toyota Diesels
Isuzu 4BD(1/2)T
Pros: cheaper than most options, robust parts infrastructure & knowledge base, definitely will hit my performance goals, low complexity
Cons: loud (but not as bad as a 4BT), adaption options unclear in 2020/21 (and probably kinda spendy), takes frame/engine mount mods, kind of a tall/short engine for the 60's bay (but not as bad as a 4BT).
Cummins R2.8
Pros: will fit, pricey but entirely figured out and troubleshot adapter setup, definitely meets performance goals, straightforward install (very little wiring), plenty smooth and quiet
Cons: probably a 2+ year wait to afford, unproven reliability since it's brand new, definitely doesn't play well with marginal fuel
Cummins B3.3
Pros: fits, possible to tune for enough power/torque without getting into crazy unreliable tractor pull/coal-blowing territory, lots of parts/knowledge support in the industrial side
Cons: probably not _much_ smoother than a 4BT, almost R2.8 expensive new and pretty hard to find used (?), lots of one-off fab work to make it fit and run at >2F performance
Toyota Diesels
13B-T/3B-T
Pros: enough torque/power, dead reliable, reasonably smooth and quiet, great with marginal fuels
Cons: need to swap input shaft or trade H55f for B model, on the low end of power/torque range, getting to be a very old engine with part support drying up, not trivial to put together turbo setup if it's a 3B I'm building up from, etc. (pretty sure I don't want one of these...)
12H-T
Pros: has the power/torque I want, definitely fits, will bolt up (+/- bellhousing???), simple and well adapted for WVO etc.
Cons: getting to be older, a bit hard to find, I hear there are annoying issues with how sensitive the accelerator is?, a bit pricey for how old an engine you're getting
1HZ (+/-) T
Pros: 1HZ is about the same as a fresh 2F naturally aspirated, and better by a good margin with a turbo, still in production, not temperamental about bad fuel, basically bolt-in, at least as smooth and quiet as my 2F with an exhaust leak, about the most modern IDI (WVO/etc.-friendly?) diesel that'll bolt to an H55f
Cons: a little expensive, a little disappointing performance NA, either expensive or long and involved to setup non-factory turbo
Something Else Toyota
Pros: you're gonna have to blow my mind with something I haven't heard of, or a cheaper source on something I have heard of, but I'm very open to hearing it if you think you've got something.
So, thoughts? Suggestions on things to research? In case it's not clear, I *think* want to find a used, clean 1HZ in about a year, and take however long it takes to settle the whole turbo setup on an engine stand in the shed before trying to install the whole mess, but I'd like folks to tell me why that's a bad idea if it is. I'd rather be disappointed now
Long story short, the 2F is old and slow and leaky and getting hard to source parts for. It's served me incredibly well for the ten years and 40k I've had the truck for, but I'm gearing up to refresh/replace the whole running gear from flywheel to hubs, so it seems like getting the motor's life cycle reset in one way or another is the next obvious step, and I'd be insane not to want some more power and torque if I'm going to do anything beyond replacing gaskets and a carb rebuild.
I also did a lot of soul-searching, and a V8 growl would change the character of the truck in ways I don't like. I want *something* with a V8, but not my 60. Meanwhile, I have the demented idea that going even further towards 'street-legal tractor' with a civilized diesel would be way more in character. I also, y'know, want more range and torque off of idle etc., and that easily pushes things towards 'diesel swap' versus a 2F rebuild or any gas engine swap (possible exception: 2FE build if the right core and combo of time/space fall into my lap). Still, important to remember that the #1 goal is future-proofing and picking the most fun/personally satisfying way to solve 'sad tired engine' which is remotely in-budget in the next couple of years: I'm not chasing big dyno numbers or MPG or turbo whine. All that stuff is neat, but I'm trying to keep the truck I'm already mostly happy with running, make it better at what it does already, and check off a few dorky bucket list items like having something that can burn biodiesel/WVO.
The truck is thoroughly a second vehicle, since I got a little manual subaru for grocery trips, but I like to/want to keep using the 60 for *whole* trips. That includes the drive around the hometown to stock up before leaving, the hours/days on the interstate (without needing to shout to have a conversation with, ideally, the cute gal in the passenger seat), all fast food drive through stops along the way, and then camping/wheeling/exploring until it's time to go home. Right now, the truck does all of that stuff okay (but has ~2 decades of deferred maintenance making it temperamental), and I don't want to spend thousands on something that makes me lose ground on any core competency, if you know what I mean.
I figure I can't settle for anything slower than a fresh 2F, or anything considerably louder/shakier/heavier like a 4BT (even if I'd love one for a dedicated crawler/ranch truck that doesn't have to pound pavement for hours on end), and I don't want anything with worse 2020-30+ prospects for parts availability than the 2F. Kind of picky, right?
I also have limited space/tool availability, so I'm also trying to minimize any/all custom fab work and anything else that would mean having to test fit a whole engine twenty times over six months. I can use a family friend's garage for a few weeks at a time, but that's five hours away. I can imagine doing a mostly bolt-in swap there, but probably nothing that takes a ton of fab-heavy trial and error. But, maybe I'll get lucky and find a place with a good work space when my current lease is up next May. Hard to predict, and I'd like to plan for worse workspace than I actually end up having than the alternative and be completely screwed and stuck with a half-finished truck when something doesn't go as smoothly as planned.
So, even pickier still is my 'want' list, but it might make some of my thinking/goals clearer:
- I want more power and torque than my tired, tired 2F. It's almost enough, with gearing, though, so anywhere past a rebuilt, cleaned up 2F is going to be gravy.
- I want easier/more reliable starts in cold weather and better running over wide altitude range.
- I want long highway trips to not make me consider earplugs and not feel like I'm idling a cement truck when I'm in line at a drive-through.
- I want to use the H55f (with 2F input shaft) I'm installing this winter/spring with a minimum of modification/adaption. New bellhousing seems fine, though. A great engine would also justify selling the cleaned up 2F/H55f to pay for something like an NV4500, but it'd have to solve a LOT of problems vs. adapting the H55.
- I want to be able to get parts for as long as possible from as podunk a source as possible, but super reliable/kinda rare is better than a problematic motor that's easy to feed parts to.
- I don't want to change my SUA OME suspension, if possible, although I'd also maybe think about converting to 80-series coils and axles with Trail Tailor's kit on the same timeframe as a swap, which might get a little room for a borderline too-tall engine.
- Like I alluded to, I want to be able to run biodiesel and/or WVO without huge mods to keep from clogging things up. This also overlaps with "maybe I'd like to be able to run ditch-grade diesel on an international trip someday?"
- I live in a place without emissions testing and my parents will for the foreseeable future, too. I'd like to take advantage of not needing EGR or silliness like DEF or the headaches with common rail/newer diesels if I'm 'adding' the complexity of a turbo to my setup in exchange for not worrying about a carb any more.
- Cheaper = sooner, and good enough and sooner = me just enjoying the truck sooner, so price is a big consideration, otherwise I'd just be 'obvious' and save up for a 1HD-T...
-- Note: this means I'm probably going to have to find a used/low miles/good compression running engine, or maybe do most of the labor on a rebuild if I start with a cheap core, but I'd really need to be convinced that I was getting a lot for my time/money vs. a used engine that I can rebuild after a few years of use.
So, here are some of the top contenders with pros/cons that I've thought of so far:
Non-Toyota Diesels
Isuzu 4BD(1/2)T
Pros: cheaper than most options, robust parts infrastructure & knowledge base, definitely will hit my performance goals, low complexity
Cons: loud (but not as bad as a 4BT), adaption options unclear in 2020/21 (and probably kinda spendy), takes frame/engine mount mods, kind of a tall/short engine for the 60's bay (but not as bad as a 4BT).
Cummins R2.8
Pros: will fit, pricey but entirely figured out and troubleshot adapter setup, definitely meets performance goals, straightforward install (very little wiring), plenty smooth and quiet
Cons: probably a 2+ year wait to afford, unproven reliability since it's brand new, definitely doesn't play well with marginal fuel
Cummins B3.3
Pros: fits, possible to tune for enough power/torque without getting into crazy unreliable tractor pull/coal-blowing territory, lots of parts/knowledge support in the industrial side
Cons: probably not _much_ smoother than a 4BT, almost R2.8 expensive new and pretty hard to find used (?), lots of one-off fab work to make it fit and run at >2F performance
Toyota Diesels
13B-T/3B-T
Pros: enough torque/power, dead reliable, reasonably smooth and quiet, great with marginal fuels
Cons: need to swap input shaft or trade H55f for B model, on the low end of power/torque range, getting to be a very old engine with part support drying up, not trivial to put together turbo setup if it's a 3B I'm building up from, etc. (pretty sure I don't want one of these...)
12H-T
Pros: has the power/torque I want, definitely fits, will bolt up (+/- bellhousing???), simple and well adapted for WVO etc.
Cons: getting to be older, a bit hard to find, I hear there are annoying issues with how sensitive the accelerator is?, a bit pricey for how old an engine you're getting
1HZ (+/-) T
Pros: 1HZ is about the same as a fresh 2F naturally aspirated, and better by a good margin with a turbo, still in production, not temperamental about bad fuel, basically bolt-in, at least as smooth and quiet as my 2F with an exhaust leak, about the most modern IDI (WVO/etc.-friendly?) diesel that'll bolt to an H55f
Cons: a little expensive, a little disappointing performance NA, either expensive or long and involved to setup non-factory turbo
Something Else Toyota
Pros: you're gonna have to blow my mind with something I haven't heard of, or a cheaper source on something I have heard of, but I'm very open to hearing it if you think you've got something.
So, thoughts? Suggestions on things to research? In case it's not clear, I *think* want to find a used, clean 1HZ in about a year, and take however long it takes to settle the whole turbo setup on an engine stand in the shed before trying to install the whole mess, but I'd like folks to tell me why that's a bad idea if it is. I'd rather be disappointed now