Toyota vs. *not* Toyota diesel for my 60? (1 Viewer)

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So, this question has been asked a million times by a million people with a million different sets of parameters. I figure I'd just start my own thread to pick some brains, so I'll cut to the chase.

Long story short, the 2F is old and slow and leaky and getting hard to source parts for. It's served me incredibly well for the ten years and 40k I've had the truck for, but I'm gearing up to refresh/replace the whole running gear from flywheel to hubs, so it seems like getting the motor's life cycle reset in one way or another is the next obvious step, and I'd be insane not to want some more power and torque if I'm going to do anything beyond replacing gaskets and a carb rebuild.

I also did a lot of soul-searching, and a V8 growl would change the character of the truck in ways I don't like. I want *something* with a V8, but not my 60. Meanwhile, I have the demented idea that going even further towards 'street-legal tractor' with a civilized diesel would be way more in character. I also, y'know, want more range and torque off of idle etc., and that easily pushes things towards 'diesel swap' versus a 2F rebuild or any gas engine swap (possible exception: 2FE build if the right core and combo of time/space fall into my lap). Still, important to remember that the #1 goal is future-proofing and picking the most fun/personally satisfying way to solve 'sad tired engine' which is remotely in-budget in the next couple of years: I'm not chasing big dyno numbers or MPG or turbo whine. All that stuff is neat, but I'm trying to keep the truck I'm already mostly happy with running, make it better at what it does already, and check off a few dorky bucket list items like having something that can burn biodiesel/WVO.

The truck is thoroughly a second vehicle, since I got a little manual subaru for grocery trips, but I like to/want to keep using the 60 for *whole* trips. That includes the drive around the hometown to stock up before leaving, the hours/days on the interstate (without needing to shout to have a conversation with, ideally, the cute gal in the passenger seat), all fast food drive through stops along the way, and then camping/wheeling/exploring until it's time to go home. Right now, the truck does all of that stuff okay (but has ~2 decades of deferred maintenance making it temperamental), and I don't want to spend thousands on something that makes me lose ground on any core competency, if you know what I mean.

I figure I can't settle for anything slower than a fresh 2F, or anything considerably louder/shakier/heavier like a 4BT (even if I'd love one for a dedicated crawler/ranch truck that doesn't have to pound pavement for hours on end), and I don't want anything with worse 2020-30+ prospects for parts availability than the 2F. Kind of picky, right?

I also have limited space/tool availability, so I'm also trying to minimize any/all custom fab work and anything else that would mean having to test fit a whole engine twenty times over six months. I can use a family friend's garage for a few weeks at a time, but that's five hours away. I can imagine doing a mostly bolt-in swap there, but probably nothing that takes a ton of fab-heavy trial and error. But, maybe I'll get lucky and find a place with a good work space when my current lease is up next May. Hard to predict, and I'd like to plan for worse workspace than I actually end up having than the alternative and be completely screwed and stuck with a half-finished truck when something doesn't go as smoothly as planned.

So, even pickier still is my 'want' list, but it might make some of my thinking/goals clearer:

- I want more power and torque than my tired, tired 2F. It's almost enough, with gearing, though, so anywhere past a rebuilt, cleaned up 2F is going to be gravy.
- I want easier/more reliable starts in cold weather and better running over wide altitude range.
- I want long highway trips to not make me consider earplugs and not feel like I'm idling a cement truck when I'm in line at a drive-through.
- I want to use the H55f (with 2F input shaft) I'm installing this winter/spring with a minimum of modification/adaption. New bellhousing seems fine, though. A great engine would also justify selling the cleaned up 2F/H55f to pay for something like an NV4500, but it'd have to solve a LOT of problems vs. adapting the H55.
- I want to be able to get parts for as long as possible from as podunk a source as possible, but super reliable/kinda rare is better than a problematic motor that's easy to feed parts to.
- I don't want to change my SUA OME suspension, if possible, although I'd also maybe think about converting to 80-series coils and axles with Trail Tailor's kit on the same timeframe as a swap, which might get a little room for a borderline too-tall engine.
- Like I alluded to, I want to be able to run biodiesel and/or WVO without huge mods to keep from clogging things up. This also overlaps with "maybe I'd like to be able to run ditch-grade diesel on an international trip someday?"
- I live in a place without emissions testing and my parents will for the foreseeable future, too. I'd like to take advantage of not needing EGR or silliness like DEF or the headaches with common rail/newer diesels if I'm 'adding' the complexity of a turbo to my setup in exchange for not worrying about a carb any more.
- Cheaper = sooner, and good enough and sooner = me just enjoying the truck sooner, so price is a big consideration, otherwise I'd just be 'obvious' and save up for a 1HD-T...
-- Note: this means I'm probably going to have to find a used/low miles/good compression running engine, or maybe do most of the labor on a rebuild if I start with a cheap core, but I'd really need to be convinced that I was getting a lot for my time/money vs. a used engine that I can rebuild after a few years of use.

So, here are some of the top contenders with pros/cons that I've thought of so far:

Non-Toyota Diesels
Isuzu 4BD(1/2)T
Pros: cheaper than most options, robust parts infrastructure & knowledge base, definitely will hit my performance goals, low complexity
Cons: loud (but not as bad as a 4BT), adaption options unclear in 2020/21 (and probably kinda spendy), takes frame/engine mount mods, kind of a tall/short engine for the 60's bay (but not as bad as a 4BT).

Cummins R2.8
Pros: will fit, pricey but entirely figured out and troubleshot adapter setup, definitely meets performance goals, straightforward install (very little wiring), plenty smooth and quiet
Cons: probably a 2+ year wait to afford, unproven reliability since it's brand new, definitely doesn't play well with marginal fuel

Cummins B3.3
Pros: fits, possible to tune for enough power/torque without getting into crazy unreliable tractor pull/coal-blowing territory, lots of parts/knowledge support in the industrial side
Cons: probably not _much_ smoother than a 4BT, almost R2.8 expensive new and pretty hard to find used (?), lots of one-off fab work to make it fit and run at >2F performance

Toyota Diesels
13B-T/3B-T

Pros: enough torque/power, dead reliable, reasonably smooth and quiet, great with marginal fuels
Cons: need to swap input shaft or trade H55f for B model, on the low end of power/torque range, getting to be a very old engine with part support drying up, not trivial to put together turbo setup if it's a 3B I'm building up from, etc. (pretty sure I don't want one of these...)

12H-T
Pros: has the power/torque I want, definitely fits, will bolt up (+/- bellhousing???), simple and well adapted for WVO etc.
Cons: getting to be older, a bit hard to find, I hear there are annoying issues with how sensitive the accelerator is?, a bit pricey for how old an engine you're getting

1HZ (+/-) T
Pros: 1HZ is about the same as a fresh 2F naturally aspirated, and better by a good margin with a turbo, still in production, not temperamental about bad fuel, basically bolt-in, at least as smooth and quiet as my 2F with an exhaust leak, about the most modern IDI (WVO/etc.-friendly?) diesel that'll bolt to an H55f
Cons: a little expensive, a little disappointing performance NA, either expensive or long and involved to setup non-factory turbo

Something Else Toyota
Pros: you're gonna have to blow my mind with something I haven't heard of, or a cheaper source on something I have heard of, but I'm very open to hearing it if you think you've got something.


So, thoughts? Suggestions on things to research? In case it's not clear, I *think* want to find a used, clean 1HZ in about a year, and take however long it takes to settle the whole turbo setup on an engine stand in the shed before trying to install the whole mess, but I'd like folks to tell me why that's a bad idea if it is. I'd rather be disappointed now :D
 

bottombracket

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I am quite biased. I am building two trucks with 1HDFT ‘s. I was going to swap a 1HZ into my 40, but that got derailed by the impending acquisition of a 15BFT from a Mega Cruiser.

If you end up going down the 1Hx series of motors pathway, which is what I would recommend, just buy a brand new 1HZ input shaft h55 from Cruiser Outfitters. They have them for $2450. You really cannot beat that price.

Another benefit of the 1Hx series of motors is the Toyota is still making the 1HZ brand new. You can literally buy every part for the motor including block, crank, pistons, head, and all the accessories. Parts acquisition is incredibly easy.

1HZ with a turbo versus holding out for a 1HDT/FT? I leave that decision up to you, your timeline, and overall build needs of the truck. I went down my 60 build initially planning a 1HZ with a turbo, but fell into an FT, so that’s the way I am going.
 
Joined
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Moscow, ID
I am quite biased. I am building two trucks with 1HDFT ‘s. I was going to swap a 1HZ into my 40, but that got derailed by the impending acquisition of a 15BFT from a Mega Cruiser.

If you end up going down the 1Hx series of motors pathway, which is what I would recommend, just buy a brand new 1HZ input shaft h55 from Cruiser Outfitters. They have them for $2450. You really cannot beat that price.

Another benefit of the 1Hx series of motors is the Toyota is still making the 1HZ brand new. You can literally buy every part for the motor including block, crank, pistons, head, and all the accessories. Parts acquisition is incredibly easy.

1HZ with a turbo versus holding out for a 1HDT/FT? I leave that decision up to you, your timeline, and overall build needs of the truck. I went down my 60 build initially planning a 1HZ with a turbo, but fell into an FT, so that’s the way I am going.
Ok, somewhere along the lines I got mixed up and thought the HZ input shaft was the same as the F/H one. That changes things...

So, maybe I want to polish the 2F turd to get an extra couple of years out of it, and do my 'cake and eat it too' engine, whatever that is?

In terms of skipping as many steps as possible but still being entirely happy with the end result...maybe I just want to look for a rebuildable 12H-T and make sure it's as good as new before I bolt it in, and not care that it's kind of a parts dead end, because it does the mechanical injection/turbo/bolts-to-my-trans thing right out of the box? I feel like I can engineer some kind of mechanical damper for the accelerator linkage if it's really as bad as some people think...
 

bottombracket

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I had @roma042987 rebuild my 12HT, and it’s a work of art. Pics and videos are scattered all over my HJ61 build thread. Go-to’s to find a good 12HT would be @joekatana, @CenTXFJ60, etc.

Also, I got some brand new throttle return springs, and that has really smoothed out the jerkiness of the throttle pedal. Fabricating dampener or finding one of the rare Toyota ones will probably be a better solution, but it’s amazing what two little springs can do to smooth it out.
 

AussieHJCruza

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Easiest install will be a 12HT, but getting more difficult to find these days. More or less bolt in engine mount wise, need to get fuel to it and back to the tank, 12,V to the starter and power to the VSVs to shut it off.

Skip a 1HZ, they're painfully slow N/A and don't shed heat fast enough because of the IDI head when turboed with enough boost to be worth driving.

1HD-T/FT/FTE would be the pick of the Toyota bunch however a bit of work to get to fit, exhaust, fuel etc will all need to swap sides. Pulls like a train with a few not particularly difficult mods. Would suggest losing the H55 and putting a H150/151/152 behind a 1HD

4 cylinder diesels don't belong in a cruiser other than an SWB IMHO, although I might reconsider for a 4BD1T, wouldn't do a 4BD2 for the same IDI reason as a 1HZ
 
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Just go that extra effort of making the HZ work. It's still being produced to this very day in brand new cruisers so parts will never be an issue. They really aren't as bad as people make them out to be if they are tuned and setup properly and have a decent turbo fitted. IDI diesels have so many positives it's hard to go with anything else
 
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Indirect injection engines by their design are so much smoother and quieter, have a broader range of torque, continue to make power right up till redline easier, can achieve much faster engine rpm and have so much more idle/off boost torque with their much higher compression ratio which is awesome for off road use. IDI does have its draw backs though and the fuel economy/engine efficiency, emissions and cooling issues ended up being prioritised which lead to DI taking over in certain countries with higher emissions and consumer demands. That being said and what many don't realise is that DI produces a lot more NOx then IDI which is why EGR/SCR is so common and also as a side effect DPF due to NOx and soot having an inverse relationship to each other. When you make a change in the combustion process to reduce NOx you unfortunately increase soot/particulate matter, hence DPF now needed.
 

AussieHJCruza

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Indirect injection engines by their design are so much smoother and quieter, have a broader range of torque, continue to make power right up till redline easier, can achieve much faster engine rpm and have so much more idle/off boost torque with their much higher compression ratio which is awesome for off road use. IDI does have its draw backs though and the fuel economy/engine efficiency, emissions and cooling issues ended up being prioritised which lead to DI taking over in certain countries with higher emissions and consumer demands. That being said and what many don't realise is that DI produces a lot more NOx then IDI which is why EGR/SCR is so common and also as a side effect DPF due to NOx and soot having an inverse relationship to each other. When you make a change in the combustion process to reduce NOx you unfortunately increase soot/particulate matter, hence DPF now needed.
The only point I can agree with here is low end torque, and that is a product of compression ratio rather than DI vs IDI specifically, but this is by and large fixed by a correctly sized turbo.

The RPM thing is subjective and I understand you like to spin diesels to 5k plus, I don't see value in that so YMMV.

IMHO, the cooling, cold starting and efficiently things are non-negotiable and therefore IDI isn't worth the effort.

Over and out, not going to start a slinging match on things we don't and probably never will agree on
 

arnott1t

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All are good points on here so far. As I read your want and need list I thought of a 1hz. They aren’t impressive in power but are a soulful engine that does well enough. They are getting to be easier to find too. With a turbo they can be down right quick but it likely hurts longevity.

we have a few and they were bad cold weather starters. I’ve found from 0 to -20 direct injected are better but in the really cold cold days the IDI seem more reliable.

so my vote is 1hz. Smooth, charming and can be upgraded later with a turbo.
 
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The main question here is what is your budget? When you mentioned the r2.8 was possibly a 2+ year wait to afford leads me to believe you may not know actual or realistic price figures for these engines or conversions in general. All of these engines will be in the 7k to 10k range in my opinion even if you do the bare minimum (used engine and a couple of p.m. items) at install. With the HZ/HDT variations you need to factor in 3k for a new trans and bellhousing to the cost of the engine you find. The 12ht and 13bt as great as they are do not meet your criteria for future parts availability. Also if you go down the rabbit hole of a used 12ht and rebuilding it you are looking at about 6k in rebuild parts and labor to rebuild the turbo, injectors and pump. That's not factoring in actual labor assembly which maybe you could do yourself. I personally love the 12ht for its simplicity and performance. I have rebuilt a few of them and have 4 of them currently with a pretty decent stock pile of parts since they are getting hard to find. Im committed to that platform I guess one could say.
 

SNLC

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You can get 1HDT’s these day for $5k. You can put an H55 behind just about any of them, including the 1HDFT.

I personally would not waste my money on anything less than the 1HDx series of engines.

I also always steer my customers away from non-Toyota diesel swaps, because, value. Resale will always be far better with a Toyota TD in it and at the end of the day, swap costs are not that much different.

Cheers
 
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You can get 1HDT’s these day for $5k. You can put an H55 behind just about any of them, including the 1HDFT.

I personally would not waste my money on anything less than the 1HDx series of engines.

I also always steer my customers away from non-Toyota diesel swaps, because, value. Resale will always be far better with a Toyota TD in it and at the end of the day, swap costs are not that much different.

Cheers


This would have been my recommendation as well but, 5k for an engine plus 3k for a trans and bellhousing puts you over the cost of the 2.8 which the p.o. stated was too much for the immediate budget. Budgets aside, 1hdft and h55 would be my choice.
 

Nostradamus

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I had very similar considerations when I was thinking about a diesel swap in my 60. I have a rebuilt 2f (75K miles ago) + H55, and it's pretty nice. The 5 spd is the bomb, the 2F is tough as an anvil, but a little under-powered for my tastes. I'm not one of a SBC or non-Toyo swap, so after thinking it over, for a while, I decided to go with the 1HZ. I had the good fortune to do a 2 week safari in Tanzania several years back, and all of the trucks on our trip were 1HZ powered LCs. LOVED riding around in them. Granted this was not highway driving, but overlanding more or less, and they were awesome. The battery died in one of the LCs overnight, and our guide simply put it in reverse (it had been parked nose up on a slight hill overnight) pushed in the clutch and let it roll backwards, popped the clutch and it fired right up.

Now, with all that said, I still had to decide what kind of highway performance I wanted since I do long road trips in my rig, and encounter hills/mountains. My 2F sucks on mountain passes, so figured a mildly turbo-ed 1HZ would fit the bill. Still going to be in the right hand lane watching EGTs, but hey, that's part of the charm of an older rig. I lurked on MUD for about a year looking for a 1HZ and / or turbo for it. One finally popped up. A Mudder in TX had one that he had planned for a 80 series swap but he had sold the truck and the 1HZ + turbo had been sitting in storage. Compression test was OK (510 PSI + on all cylinders), IP and injectors had been serviced, new timing belt, and water pump, and it came with flex plate / bellhousing for an automatic. Plus he had a rebuilt CT26 turbo. My 60 is my second car, so my plan was to get swap the input shaft on the H55 I have mated to my 2F so it will bolt up to the 1HZ. Had to scare up the right bellhousing as well. The 1HZ + turbo parts was $3750 + shipping, so I pulled the trigger. New input shaft plus bearing for the H55 was around $125 IIRC.

Feedback I got from the forum recommended that I go with the swap in NA form and get that sorted before adding the turbo (so as to minimize the number of variables introduced), so that's my plan. I'm hoping to have everything ready to go on the 1HZ by spring break (it's on a stand in my garage right now). Plan to do some cleaning and painting, replace the BEBs, plumb the oil pan for turbo oil return, new rear main + clutch. Then I'll pull the 2F/H55 and swap the input shaft, mount it to the engine and locate it in the engine bay using the H55 cross member, and then use Georg's engine mounts that he makes for this swap.

My hope is that I can I run the setup in NA configuration for a few months and then add the turbo. Pretty sure this approach will require me to modify the exhaust setup going from NA to turbo, but that seems like fair tradeoff.

One of the considerations for me in doing the 1HZ (T) is availability of parts and the somewhat esoteric view that the 1HZ (T) would fit the character of the FJ60. All the other 1HX... Toyo diesels mentioned by other posters are certainly more powerful/modern, but I went the older-school route. Your mileage may vary.

BTW, I was in Moscow ID a while back taking my son on a campus tour at the university. Cool town, cool school.
 

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