To change or not to change…the transmission filter. (1 Viewer)

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

Yep, I did my LX570 and Tundra with the Ravenol package last year. I see the price for Ravenol has gone through the roof, but I heard ALL gear oil has.....just like everything else since January 2021.....


I also did the coolant drain/fill with my LX earlier this year, about 115k miles. The busted radiator helped immensely with that item

 

[linuxgod]

Thanks, I was looking in the general PID and not the Toyota PID for it. I found it now.

I like to monitor this when driving off road especially on soft sand.

There should be 2 PIDs. One is the pan temp, the other is the torque converter. All the warning lights on the dashboard are keyed to the TC temp, not the pan. It’s good to know both, but just for reference Toyota seems to feel the hottest temp (post-TC) is the one to watch

 

[linuxgod]

You live in Texas. There is no worry about damaging bolts from the pan drop. There's 4 bolts with exposed ends, 2 on each side of the pan at the rear. Spray some PB Blaster over the top of them at the beginning of the job...let them soak until they are the last bolts to loosen. I loosen all of them, then back them out with a battery powered ratchet. I put a dab of anti-seize on the bolts when I put them back in the first time. Unless you live in the Salt Belt, that's all you'll ever need is that one time.


Dropping the pan is the way to go, as mentioned above you get to inspect for any foreign material that might give you a heads up. It's like a stress test on your heart.

A dealer wants to "run fluid through until its' clear" ??? That's NOT the correct procedure. That's why I don't let dealers touch my stuff....

A pan drop and fluid re-fill, run it down the road a couple of miles, then a drop-n-fill would be good. Repeat the drop-n-fill in 30k miles and pan drop at 60-70k..



Also - I don't know how many of you have ever actually held a proper OEM filter in your hands and looked at the internals, but it is NO SCREEN. Every single transmission filter I have bought has pleated material much like a high-quality air filter. If that's a screen that barely stops a broken bolt, that's news to me.

Toyota feels the fluid is lifetime unless you tow or drive off-road. So based on your comment not only is there no need to replace all 13 quarts, but most people don’t even need to do a drain and fill of the pan.

Personally I don’t understand why you would only change 1/4 of the fluid. Do you change 1/4 of your oil? The clean fluid will just mix with the worn fluid, so you’ll always be running older and older fluid at each exchange. Presumably Toyota feels the transmission only needs a new dose of additives? Or maybe the strategy is designed to address the “I just changed my AT fluid for the first time in 250k miles and now my transmission is slipping” crowd?

If you are going to just swap the pan fluid once and drive 60k until the next scheduled swap more power to ya. But for those who have modded their vehicles and run them hard (off-road, towing, etc) it’s incorrect to say “the manual (or Toyota) doesn’t say to do it so it’s not necessary (or a good idea)” - at that point the manual is a guide, not a bible.

 

[Fisher23]

I watched a Toyota video about should you change the fluid a while back. They recommended 60k towing or off road or 100k if you are easy on it.
They said to never flush as there are small micro clutch particles covering the clutches allowing them to continue to operate fine, but flushing would remove these particles.
The reason to replace the fluid was to refresh the additives.
They also said to drop the pan to remove all spent fluid.
They also said changing the fluid too often was bad as these particles need to build up on the clutches for a longer life.

There was also another one on why to change the coolant at 100k as the coolant becomes very acidity and will take out weak parts like water pump and gaskets.

 

[linuxgod]

I watched a Toyota video about should you change the fluid a while back. They recommended 60k towing or off road or 100k if you are easy on it.
They said to never flush as there are small micro clutch particles covering the clutches allowing them to continue to operate fine, but flushing would remove these particles.
The reason to replace the fluid was to refresh the additives.
They also said to drop the pan to remove all spent fluid.
They also said changing the fluid too often was bad as these particles need to build up on the clutches for a longer life.

There was also another one on why to change the coolant at 100k as the coolant becomes very acidity and will take out weak parts like water pump and gaskets.

The explanation seems to fit with the common wisdom of not changing the fluid if you have 200k+ on your transmission, as it may start to slip. That said, if you do a full flush and suddenly your transmission slips there are friction modifiers you can add which will solve the problem.

Anecdotally I’ve done 3 swaps at 60/90/120k and I’ve not experienced that, but if you are high mileage and have never done a fluid exchange, it’s certainly possible. I’m still sticking with the full flush though, my driving is far beyond “normal” - bad aero, big tires, shorter gearing, empty weight near GVWR and regularly towing close to GCWR at 75mph for days on end, and I tow about 50% of my time and another 40% is pure city. If I kill the transmission early I’ll be sure to post about it

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

Toyota feels the fluid is lifetime unless you tow or drive off-road. So based on your comment not only is there no need to replace all 13 quarts, but most people don’t even need to do a drain and fill of the pan.

Personally I don’t understand why you would only change 1/4 of the fluid. Do you change 1/4 of your oil? The clean fluid will just mix with the worn fluid, so you’ll always be running older and older fluid at each exchange. Presumably Toyota feels the transmission only needs a new dose of additives? Or maybe the strategy is designed to address the “I just changed my AT fluid for the first time in 250k miles and now my transmission is slipping” crowd?

If you are going to just swap the pan fluid once and drive 60k until the next scheduled swap more power to ya. But for those who have modded their vehicles and run them hard (off-road, towing, etc) it’s incorrect to say “the manual (or Toyota) doesn’t say to do it so it’s not necessary (or a good idea)” - at that point the manual is a guide, not a bible.

1. Nobody said it is "Lifetime" fluid. It's nowhere in the owner's manual or service manual. Toyota side-steps any recommendation to service the transmission outside of "heavy/frequent towing". Toyota and it's dealers also tell every single customer they are 'good to go' for 10k mile oil change intervals, without ever interrogating the customer about their driving habits. The owner's manual states otherwise.

2. I believe the transmission fluid capacity is about 12 quarts? I'm assuming you believe that also, since you most likely feel a pan drop/filter change and refill equates to about 3-4 quarts and you're calling that 1/4 of the fluid? Well, in my experiences of dropping the pan on both my LX and Tundra, replacing the filter and refilling, I am using over 5.5 quarts of transmission fluid to refill the pan and only getting about 6-8 oz out of the check plug when the fluid temp reaches 116°F. I'd call that more than 1/4 of the fluid being replaced.

Yes, any transmission tech/shop owner will tell you that servicing the transmission regularly (50-60k miles) will benefit the transmission by replenishing the additives.

3. It might not be recent theory or information, but I've learned lately that there's some science to NOT doing a full-on fluid flush after 100 or 130k miles if you haven't been doing that prior at some interval. The reason being is the fluid has a healthy amount of friction material from the clutch plates that actually assist the clutch plates now with 'grip'. If you have the 250k mile vehicle, never having serviced the transmission and then decide to completely replace the fluid, you're washing away literally most of the grip the clutch plates had.

It seems the better service theory is to start early with servicing the transmission, a pan drop, filter replacement and refill, as this helps prevent the friction material from wearing off the clutch plates.

I do what I feel is right based on listening to people that have in-depth experience and have studied issues. I'm not here to argue, just the opposite, I'd rather share what I feel are beneficial experiences.

How much service and repair work have you performed on your 2013?

 

[CharlieS]

Good video for the procedure:



That must be a 'mud member?

 

[32cls6speedmt]

Good video for the procedure:



That must be a 'mud member?

It is legendary @NLScooby

 

[bloc]

Toyota and it's dealers also tell every single customer they are 'good to go' for 10k mile oil change intervals, without ever interrogating the customer about their driving habits. The owner's manual states otherwise.

Have you met a service advisor with their up selling tendencies?

Mine is one of hundreds (thousands?) that got oil changes every 5k on the dot. I doubt that would be happening so often if dealers weren’t talking owners into it.

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

Have you met a service advisor with their up selling tendencies?

Mine is one of hundreds (thousands?) that got oil changes every 5k on the dot. I doubt that would be happening so often if dealers weren’t talking owners into it.

1. No. Well, yes, I have, possibly, when I was younger and less-experienced.

2. From what I read over many areas, Toyota and Lexus dealers are telling owners of new(er) vehicles that they don't change the oil except every 10k miles. I've never heard of a dealer SA trying to sell a 5k mile oil change, quite the opposite, I've heard numerous stories where the owner wanted a 5k mile oil change the dealer WOULD NOT DO IT.

 

[Adrenaline6]

From what I gather, if you drain your trans fluid, and that fluid is very burnt and your pan is full of clutch material, a fluid exchange is not advised due to the fact that that clutch material in the fluid is adding friction to the clutches that would be gone once exchanged and then slippage will occur. If your fluid is just a little dark and the clutch material in the pan is just nominal, then a fluid exchange is no problem and probably beneficial because of the old worn out fluid being replaced along with the increased % of additives in the cycling trans fluid.

Kind of like putting a coat of paint on some 2nd or 3rd degree rust....just leave it be...or do a total overhaul...its already too late. Surface rust...a quick clean and paint is good.

 

[Fisher23]

There is also a thread on here on how to which is really good. There are some minor differences in 2016+ method.

 

[linuxgod]

Replying out of order, and then I'm done with this discussion because I can't add anything more of value.

How much service and repair work have you performed on your 2013?

I've done very little repair work on the 200 as it's been pretty solid. Lots of maintenance and mods. Some of them I do, some of them I've paid a shop to do. For instance I paid a shop to do my gears and lockers because it requires precision and patience (particularly the front diff), but I did the lift because that's mainly just brute force. I paid a shop to install the front bumper and winch because I only had a few days to get it installed before a long trip, but I did the rear swingout bumper myself over the course of a week. I have a shop I trust who does fluid swaps for me because until last year I didn't have a place I could do them myself, and now I still do because while I like to get under the truck to inspect I also see the value in having a second set of eyes look over my truck twice a year.. and quite frankly it's worth me paying for the labor to avoid the mess and hassle of working on my back under the truck in the cold. I follow a pretty aggressive fluid/maintenance schedule which is pretty close to what is in the SOC, and I pretty much shun the unnecessary crap dealers often try to push, though in fairness my local dealer has never tried to offer any of those services to me. (I can change my own blinker fluid, TYVM!)

Yes, any transmission tech/shop owner will tell you that servicing the transmission regularly (50-60k miles) will benefit the transmission by replenishing the additives.

3. It might not be recent theory or information, but I've learned lately that there's some science to NOT doing a full-on fluid flush after 100 or 130k miles if you haven't been doing that prior at some interval. The reason being is the fluid has a healthy amount of friction material from the clutch plates that actually assist the clutch plates now with 'grip'. If you have the 250k mile vehicle, never having serviced the transmission and then decide to completely replace the fluid, you're washing away literally most of the grip the clutch plates had.

It seems the better service theory is to start early with servicing the transmission, a pan drop, filter replacement and refill, as this helps prevent the friction material from wearing off the clutch plates.

I do what I feel is right based on listening to people that have in-depth experience and have studied issues. I'm not here to argue, just the opposite, I'd rather share what I feel are beneficial experiences.

There are 2 sides to #3. The friction material causing the transmission to work with old fluid but not with new fluid is the same friction material that's circulating through the transmission and also slowly wearing down the internal components. I am fully of the opinion that if you maintain your transmission with regular fluid exchanges from the start that the small amounts of friction material you lose are more than offset by keeping fresh fluid with proper additives in the system which largely prevents the clutch plates from wearing rapidly to begin with. I mean, when they build a new transmission it's not like Toyota is tossing a handful of sand into the system to make sure the clutch packs have sufficient friction, so fresh fluid in a non-worn transmission must have the correct amount of friction to function properly, right?

However as I've said if you have a vehicle with ~200k and it's never had the transmission fluid flushed, it's perfectly reasonable to either do a pan-only swap or just leave it alone at that point, depending on fluid condition and mileage. I don't dispute that once the clutch packs are worn and don't engage like they should that you should be careful about upsetting the existing system (which includes fluid). Again I'll point out at that point you are living on borrowed time anyway.

In the end you can do whatever maintenance you'd like however you'd like it. Honestly these transmissions will go 300k before needing a rebuild even if you don't do anything to them, provided they haven't seen absurd levels of abuse.

1. Nobody said it is "Lifetime" fluid. It's nowhere in the owner's manual or service manual. Toyota side-steps any recommendation to service the transmission outside of "heavy/frequent towing". Toyota and it's dealers also tell every single customer they are 'good to go' for 10k mile oil change intervals, without ever interrogating the customer about their driving habits. The owner's manual states otherwise.

Re: #1 - Rather than dispute the meaning of the word "Lifetime", I'm simply going to provide facts

My 2013 manual says for normal driving to inspect at 60k and then at 30k intervals thereafter. No where in the first 120k does is say to replace during normal usage. No where does the manual say "replace at 100k under normal driving conditions" (or "if you go easy on it"). The open point of discussion should only be what to do if the fluid inspection reveals it's burnt or contains water infiltration - do you swap just the pan or do you exchange all of it?

Also under Special Operating Conditions is says when towing or heavy vehicle loading to "Replace automatic transmission fluid". No where does it say "replace some of your A/T fluid". Given the maintenance schedule, it seems completely reasonable to me to replace all the fluid if you fall under the SOC, or if normal duty A/T fluid inspection reveals the fluid is compromised.

2. I believe the transmission fluid capacity is about 12 quarts? I'm assuming you believe that also, since you most likely feel a pan drop/filter change and refill equates to about 3-4 quarts and you're calling that 1/4 of the fluid? Well, in my experiences of dropping the pan on both my LX and Tundra, replacing the filter and refilling, I am using over 5.5 quarts of transmission fluid to refill the pan and only getting about 6-8 oz out of the check plug when the fluid temp reaches 116°F. I'd call that more than 1/4 of the fluid being replaced.

As to #2 - Officially the system holds 12.6 quarts. The dealer by me charges for 12 quarts when doing a fluid exchange. Maybe I'm getting 0.6 free quarts, or maybe they're not quite swapping all the fluid.

Also officially the FSM says just doing a pan drain/fill should be 2.2 quarts. I'm not going to dispute that you may end up draining more off as most people have found they end up draining somewhere in the neighborhood of 3-4 quarts out as there are several factors which will affect the precise amount of fluid drained including fluid temperature (warm fluid will drain better and also has more volume than cold fluid, if you've added a lift and changed the rake of your vehicle the pan may no longer be perfectly level, etc).

BTW the FSM has instructions on how to drain the system and fill it when you've replaced the pan, valve body, or TC, all of which involve filling the pan, shifting through the gears for 30 seconds, then shutting off and adding more fluid if it's not coming out the overflow plug. I cannot find any maintenance procedure in the Toyota FSM which says to only drain and refill the pan when doing the above maintenance.

 

[AnyMal]

When i did full baseline at 60k and did the ATF replacement I leveled the truck at the frame rails and the check fill tube did not work at all. It bled wayyy too much fluid, and significantly delayed shifts on test drive.

I added back exactly how much I removed and it was perfect again. If i recall it was low at least couple of quarts. The factory method using tech stream reading at temp did not work at all. I just also hate the process and I think its prone to innacuracy.

Just a word of caution for the 8spds out there, do it however you will, but carefully keep track of how much you’re removing just in case. Our pans are angled differently and i don’t know why i failed using the FSM method other than levelling at the frame. At the dealer it will be lifted and done exactly that way though… Still haven’t found an answer. And if you are supposed to do it on level ground tires down, that probably goes out the window once you lift and modify like I have. But theres no way thats the intended pan angle.

Also i drive and redline shift the truck pretty hard every once once in a while and the trans has never slipped before or after.

 

[Fj60+]

So…after all the service everything has been great, tsb has been a game changer and even saw an uptick in mpg. However, now when I reverse I get a slight shudder when reversing uphill…never had it before. Basically when I start to reverse uphill with little throttle it shudders and doesn’t move, little more throttle and shuddering stops and it reverses fine. On level ground, no issue at all.

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

So…after all the service everything has been great, tsb has been a game changer and even saw an uptick in mpg. However, now when I reverse I get a slight shudder when reversing uphill…never had it before. Basically when I start to reverse uphill with little throttle it shudders and doesn’t move, little more throttle and shuddering stops and it reverses fine. On level ground, no issue at all.

Did you pay a business to perform this service?

 

[Fj60+]

Toyota dealer in my area. Reached out to them today. We shall see what excuses they come up with.

 

[Adrenaline6]

Just out of curiosity, I contacted my local Lexus dealer to see how much they would charge for a fluid exchange and they flat out said they wouldn't do it.

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

Just out of curiosity, I contacted my local Lexus dealer to see how much they would charge for a fluid exchange and they flat out said they wouldn't do it.

I've heard similar at a HIGHLY respected, high-traffic Toy/Lex independent shop in the Atlanta area about servicing the AHC system. "We don't do it. We recommend not touching it and when it goes out, just take it out and put in standard Struts."


YHGTBSM....

So I do all this stuff myself. I research and educate myself and buy the necessary tools, find the dealers who have good online parts pricing, both local and afar, and buy the OEM parts and try to do everything myself.

It is ridiculously less expensive, I maintain my vehicles better than any shop, be it a dealer or independent, and hopefully I reap the rewards of a very long life of the vehicle.

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

Just out of curiosity, I contacted my local Lexus dealer to see how much they would charge for a fluid exchange and they flat out said they wouldn't do it.

One more thing - It's not that difficult to drop the pan/change the filter/gasket and refill. I would strongly urge you to buy a code reader in which you can read transmission fluid temps; I bought a $150 Foxwell NT530 with Toyota-based software. Each of their scanners comes with one manufacturer-based software. You can buy additional manufacturers for about $7-80 each. I bought Honda's because I also have a CR-V that my daughter drives...

I drive up on 4 Rhino ramps on a level surface. Take all the 10mm bolts loose and take all but 4 out, after draining the pan with the drain bolt. Then remove the last four, carefully tipping the pan over to finish draining. There's about a pint+ of fluid left in the pan after draining it with the drain bolt. Take the filter loose with the two 10mm bolts, there will be almost another pint of fluid come out here. Wipe everything down with paper towels.

I then clean the pan and magnets, put some gasket tack on, put the gasket on, install a new filter, then the pan, drain bolts, put the paper clip in the thermostat and put about 5.5 quarts of fluid in. I hook the scanner up, push the start button twice without foot on the brake to let the scanner have time to run through all it's processes. This can take several minutes. I will crank it up once I get to the trans temp screen and let it run for 2-3 minutes, then shut it off and go get a drink/snack and let the fluid settle/cool down a bit.

Then I crank it back up, wait til it hits 113°F, then crawl under, take the check drain bolt out and let it drain until it slows to a fine stream, then close it up. Pull the paper clip out of the thermostat and then test drive.

I've done this several times between my LX570, Tundra and RX350.