To ABS or not to ABS, that is the question (1 Viewer)

lumbee1

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For about a year now, my ABS light has been on and my brake pedal feel has been a little soft. It's been one of those I've been meaning to get to it. A buddy and myself hit the trails last Wednesday and in a bit of a steep situation I had to stop to make another run with a little bump to get over the rock. While "stopped" the Cruiser continued to slide backwards slowly and I had to apply a lot of foot pressure to prevent rolling back further. My priority of fixing the brakes has dramatically increased since this could potentially cause an accident offroad or even onroad.

Current braking specs:
EBC Green 100 pads up front, EBC Green 80 pads in the rear, LSPV removed, reman calipers front and rear, system bleed on a regular basis, OEM rotors at all four corners, OEM rubber lines overdue for replacement.
The LSPV delete made a huge difference in braking performance but what I gained has now been lost and possibly worse. I think when I changed the front calipers, I introduced air into the ABS pump.

Following this thread: Is there a way to trigger ABS actuator to combat spongy breakes?
I tried activating the ABS pump tonight with positive and negative leads connected. I heard a soft relay click and saw sparking at the positive lead but the ABS pump clearly did not activate.

Is the ABS pump bad and needs to be replaced or should I just remove the ABS pump entirely and simplify the system?

With ABS:
Pros: Safety in emergency stops and ice
Cons: complex, chance for air to enter the system again, performance

Without ABS:
Pros: Simplified system, easy to bleed, performance improvement,
Cons: Safety in emergency stops and ice

For 99.9% of the time without ABS, I will enjoy a truck that has strong brakes and consistent stopping power. However that 0.1% that I need the ABS safety I have a feeling I will regret removing it.

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cvenom96

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Same dilemma I'm in. No ABS light but I've replaced everything except the LSPV and bled it to death but still not what it should be. I've seen where if you put it up on jack stands with the wheels on and hit the brakes, that should activate the ABS as well. Haven't had a chance to try it myself but it's got to be air in the ABS as far as I'm concerned at this point.
 
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Pulling the ABS pump, LSPV delete replaced the frame to axle lines with stainless steel lines and complete bleeding of the system made a world of difference. If I am not careful I can lock up my 35's.

Also, look into replacing the master/booster too.
 

LandCruiserPhil

Peter Pan Syndrome
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The best 80 series braking mod ever

 
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Atlanta
I really struggled with this same decision. And finally decided to delete the ABS. The difference is shocking. My 80 stops so fast now and has a solid pedal. I feel much safer now than I did with the ABS.
 
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Here's another delete vote. Unambiguous immediate improvement with the not small bonus of a bunch of extra room under hood. You don't realize how in the way all that crap is till it's in the bin. With the addition of stainless lines, brakes feel like you did a brembo conversion in comparison to stock. Even with s*** pads.
 

baldilocks

Battle Ground, WA
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And if you want powerful brakes with a short, firm pedal do what this guy did. ABS is not safer if your brakes don’t actually work. It had to have been invented to make up for poor driving habits.

 
Joined
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Clovis, CA
Bear in mind the ABS system in these trucks is first generation. It probably isn’t as effective as modern systems.

Both Toyota and Jeep began offering ABS in 1993/94 as an option only and it didnt become standard until the turn of the century. I remember my old TJ sucking if I went downhill on slick granite on certain situations. The pedal shuddering and inability to lock up was horrible.
 

jaymar

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Hate to be a party pooper, but this is intentionally disabling a factory installed safety system. Legally speaking, that's quite different from adding things that may affect performance or handling. And that's not looking good for the person who removes them.

It does look very good, however, to your insurance company – – which will seek to use your actions (reckless/negligent/illegal modification of a factory-installed safety sysytem) as an excuse to bail on you, leaving you to foot whatever bill there may be, all by your lonesome.

Think of it this way: if you remove a safety mechanism from a gun, and someone gets shot with it--intentionally or otherwise--what's that going to look like in court?

If you really don’t want ABS-– and there are off-road-related reasons not to – – buy a 94 and hydroboost it.
 

cvenom96

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Hate to be a party pooper, but this is intentionally disabling a factory installed safety system. Legally speaking, that's quite different from adding things that may affect performance or handling. And that's not looking good for the person who removes them.

It does look very good, however, to your insurance company – – which will seek to use your actions (reckless/negligent/illegal modification of a factory-installed safety sysytem) as an excuse to bail on you, leaving you to foot whatever bill there may be, all by your lonesome.

Think of it this way: if you remove a safety mechanism from a gun, and someone gets shot with it--intentionally or otherwise--what's that going to look like in court?

If you really don’t want ABS-– and there are off-road-related reasons not to – – buy a 94 and hydroboost it.

This is the only reason I'm hesitant.
 

enox

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I'm not sure, I read that after 20 years the system gets air in it then they are impossible to bleed. I actually just removed my abs system and deleted the lspv a few days ago...
 

enox

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Hate to be a party pooper, but this is intentionally disabling a factory installed safety system. Legally speaking, that's quite different from adding things that may affect performance or handling. And that's not looking good for the person who removes them.

It does look very good, however, to your insurance company – – which will seek to use your actions (reckless/negligent/illegal modification of a factory-installed safety sysytem) as an excuse to bail on you, leaving you to foot whatever bill there may be, all by your lonesome.

Think of it this way: if you remove a safety mechanism from a gun, and someone gets shot with it--intentionally or otherwise--what's that going to look like in court?

If you really don’t want ABS-– and there are off-road-related reasons not to – – buy a 94 and hydroboost it.
This is a good point. IMO ultimately, its up to you and how/ when you use your rig. Only off road or on the street. Personally, I have had trailer only off road vehicles and on road track cars. There are pros and cons to both systems depending on the usage. It boils down to your needs, vehicle usage and terrain.

I would advise for those who are unsure weather to have ABS or not, Aire on the side of caution/ legality to keep it.
 

LandCruiserPhil

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Hate to be a party pooper, but this is intentionally disabling a factory installed safety system. Legally speaking, that's quite different from adding things that may affect performance or handling. And that's not looking good for the person who removes them.

It does look very good, however, to your insurance company – – which will seek to use your actions (reckless/negligent/illegal modification of a factory-installed safety sysytem) as an excuse to bail on you, leaving you to foot whatever bill there may be, all by your lonesome.

Think of it this way: if you remove a safety mechanism from a gun, and someone gets shot with it--intentionally or otherwise--what's that going to look like in court?

If you really don’t want ABS-– and there are off-road-related reasons not to – – buy a 94 and hydroboost it.

Yes but because of my new superior braking I did not run over the bus of nuns so no need for the insurance company. :grinpimp:

Personally, I don't see adding hydroboost or even 40's any different. You are altering the performance of a factory system. Point being an insurance company can deny coverage for a ton of reasons and crappy companies do all the time. BTDT
 
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@lumbee1 On my last few brake flushes I've included bleeding of the ABS unit which at least hasn't hurt anything and which could help you improve pedal feel. For reference, my '97 80 is on stock size tires with a completely stock brake system including LSPV and I'm happy with the brakes and can lock them up on dry pavement. I also haul a 3000 ish pound popup camper somewhat regularly and am happy with braking in that scenario as well.

My current fluid flush process is:
  • Fill and attach my pressure bleeder to the master reservoir
  • Run most of one of the larger (1 QT?) bottles through the system first by letting the pressure bleeder push fluid through then with a few fast pedal pumps on each of the 5 bleed screws/points (4 calipers, 1 lspv).
  • After the wheels and lspv are all done but while there's a bit of fluid in the pressure bleeder and the MC reservoir is overfull I loosen one line at a time on the ABS module near the master cylinder. I use a flare wrench to minimize stripping risk and loosen each of these enough to get a good flow going. Before I open any of these I wet the area thoroughly with a water hose and while bleeding the ABS I flush the area regularly with more water to avoid letting the brake fluid damage any paint/etc.
It's hard to know how much good the additional ABS bleed does especially as I can't watch for bubbles through a clear line like on the wheels/lspv but it doesn't appear to hurt anything and it makes it easy for me to push fluid out to the level that I want to end up with in the MC reservoir.

Regarding keeping/deleting I can appreciate both sides but will add the following anecdote. While most of my driving miles over the years have been in non-ABS vehicles I had my first experience with the 80 where I was glad to have ABS 2 weeks ago. I was in 70+ MPH traffic, in heavy rain, at night on a busy interstate (4 or 5 lanes on my side of the median entering Atlanta) when traffic came to a quick stop due to a 5 or 6 car pileup just ahead of us. I had to hit the brakes pretty hard to not quickly hit the car in front but the car behind me was very close also. The ABS got involved and I steered the right to navigate to the shoulder so that I could give the car behind a bit more room to stop without hitting the 80. You never know how things may have been different but I don't see how I could have managed that high-speed stop and mid-stop course adjustment on the wet and varied surfaces (stripe, rumble strip, shoulder) without having more wheel slip and drama. In my non ABS vehicles, particularly 4wds, such a maneuver often led to one side braking better than the other and the vehicle trying to rotate which increases stopping distance as it's managed. In short, I plan to keep the ABS. Before I finally got my brakes to adequate levels though I was considering deleting the ABS and had they not started working well (thanks to my persistence) I wouldn't have kept ABS.

Good Luck
 

enox

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Regarding keeping/deleting I can appreciate both sides but will add the following anecdote. While most of my driving miles over the years have been in non-ABS vehicles I had my first experience with the 80 where I was glad to have ABS 2 weeks ago. I was in 70+ MPH traffic, in heavy rain, at night on a busy interstate (4 or 5 lanes on my side of the median entering Atlanta) when traffic came to a quick stop due to a 5 or 6 car pileup just ahead of us. I had to hit the brakes pretty hard to not quickly hit the car in front but the car behind me was very close also. The ABS got involved and I steered the right to navigate to the shoulder so that I could give the car behind a bit more room to stop without hitting the 80. You never know how things may have been different but I don't see how I could have managed that high-speed stop and mid-stop course adjustment on the wet and varied surfaces (stripe, rumble strip, shoulder) without having more wheel slip and drama. In my non ABS vehicles, particularly 4wds, such a maneuver often led to one side braking better than the other and the vehicle trying to rotate which increases stopping distance as it's managed. In short, I plan to keep the ABS. Before I finally got my brakes to adequate levels though I was considering deleting the ABS and had they not started working well (thanks to my persistence) I wouldn't have kept ABS.
wow, I'm glad you and others in your immediate area are all okay.
 
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Thanks @enox We had 30 or 45 minutes to sit and watch the cleanup and appreciate not being a part of it. I'm glad that most/all of the cars around us were modern and capable of such a quick stop like that as well. The style of driving done in urban areas like D.C. where I lived previously seems to rely on how well most modern cars handle and stop and I'm impressed by how well a stock 80 can handle that while also rocking it off road.
 

baldilocks

Battle Ground, WA
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Yes but because of my new superior braking I did not run over the bus of nuns so no need for the insurance company. :grinpimp:

Personally, I don't see adding hydroboost or even 40's any different. You are altering the performance of a factory system. Point being an insurance company can deny coverage for a ton of reasons and crappy companies do all the time. BTDT
The hydro booster does apply more clamping force at the rotor but the big reason I did hydro boost was so I could move away from from that scrawny MC and the long pedal travel it induces. The hydro booster has no problem applying enough power assist with a 1.125” MC bore.

After removing all abs related components and bleeding the system, which at that point is a matter of opening the bleeders and letting gravity do the rest, my brake pedal, although better, was not what I was looking for and hope that those who are happy with simply deleting abs ended up with better brakes than I did.
 

enox

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The hydro booster does apply more clamping force at the rotor but the big reason I did hydro boost was so I could move away from from that scrawny MC and the long pedal travel it induces. The hydro booster has no problem applying enough power assist with a 1.125” MC bore.

After removing all abs related components and bleeding the system, which at that point is a matter of opening the bleeders and letting gravity do the rest, my brake pedal, although better, was not what I was looking for and hope that those who are happy with simply deleting abs ended up with better brakes than I did.
I did not know that you could just crack the bleeder and let gravity do the work.. That would have been easier then explaining to the girl how to pump and hold whilst being asked "again...?" "Yes, hun..again, we've gotta do it until there's no bubbles" then came the " my leg is getting tired" :rofl: she's a trooper though and persisted.
 

LandCruiserPhil

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The hydro booster does apply more clamping force at the rotor but the big reason I did hydro boost was so I could move away from from that scrawny MC and the long pedal travel it induces. The hydro booster has no problem applying enough power assist with a 1.125” MC bore.

After removing all abs related components and bleeding the system, which at that point is a matter of opening the bleeders and letting gravity do the rest, my brake pedal, although better, was not what I was looking for and hope that those who are happy with simply deleting abs ended up with better brakes than I did.

I have owned and understand hydroboost systems my point is by adding you are altering a factory braking system.
 

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