Tires for Towing with a 200 Series (1 Viewer)

[terrapin]

I'm looking to buy tires for towing with my 2010 LX570 and would like to get opinions/real life experiences on tire options. I tow a 6000 lb Airstream and often cruise Forest Service/BLM roads in the Southwest and Colorado. Not really into serious 4x4 or rock crawling, but still want an all terrain tire. I typically tow a long distance on the highway to a base camp and then explore from there.

I have 18" Tundra wheels (switching from the LX stock 20") want to stick with stock (285/60/18) or near stock size, primarily for gas mileage and power in the mountains. I typically get 9-11 mpg towing (with stock 20" Michelin Lattitudes) so a 1-2 mpg hit would be disastrous!

I'm a long time user of BFG KO2s (on other vehicles), but they do not come E-rated for stock 285/60/18. I can get them E-rated in 275/65/18. The KO2s weigh 56 lbs.

Everyone, everywhere raves about Falken Wildpeak A/T3W, but they are really heavy (61 lbs).

I'm also looking at Nitto Terra Grappler G2 (285/60/18). They are E-rated and weigh just 53 lbs.

 

[eatSleepWoof]

How often are you going to be towing? For how long?

The only time I'd consider changing tires to better suit towing is if I towed weekly, for at least a few hundred miles each time.

The vehicle comes with street tires, and a tow rating. So long as you are within that tow rating, (and you are) you will be fine on those very street tires.

Get whatever AT tire meets your FSR needs and enjoy.

 

[bloc]

Just switching to LT tires, in the exact same size, whether c, d, or e-load will impact mileage compared to your stock p-metric ones. So unfortunately a mileage hit is basically inevitable if you want to go to the more robust load capacity and construction.

Otherwise I don’t think you’ll notice a substantive difference between d and e load for your uses. Both should very easily handle the axle loads in question and allow extra pressure if needed for stability.

 

[terrapin]

I tow about once a month usually for a few hundred miles. I guess I should have mentioned that I bought the 18" Tundra wheels to replace the 20" stock wheels, so I'm not just buying to tow, but as a general replacement/conversion to 18".

 

[bloc]

I tow about once a month usually for a few hundred miles. I guess I should have mentioned that I bought the 18" Tundra wheels to replace the 20" stock wheels, so I'm not just buying to tow, but as a general replacement/conversion to 18".

There are a bunch of XL load non-LT tires that beat even a D-load LT in the same size for 18" rims, assuming you stick with stock 285/60R18. I have a different size P-metric Toyo ATII on my 17" rock warroirs and they have been great tires.. I picked up a significant mileage bump over the smaller diameter E-load KO2s I was running on stock 18s. Never any traction issues even with the milder p-metric version, though I tend to stay out of deep mud. Quieter than my old KO2s.
So I feel I can endorse toyo's new ATIII. They are 46# in your size. KO2's look great but are a very old design and frankly other manufacturers have come a long way since they were introduced.

 

[vipergrhd]

Have you check your actual tongue load when the vehicle is loaded? It would be a good idea to find out even if you end up getting a D or E rated tires.

 

[terrapin]

Have you check your actual tongue load when the vehicle is loaded? It would be a good idea to find out even if you end up getting a D or E rated tires.

I believe that my tongue weight is about 750 lbs. I've been towing fine with a WD hitch and the original 20" wheels.

@bloc I hadn't considered XL or even D rated tires. I guess I thought that E rated was the ticket for towing. That's why this forum is great!

 

[Whiskerz]

The slight gain you tend to have with E rated tires is a stiffer sidewall. which while it helps reduce sway it also reduce mileage. Remember you want to be above the minimums and have a safety margin. Also make sure you have a trailer spare and a way to jack it up as well.

 

[TeCKis300]

You're on the right track with consideration to tire parameters for towing. You'll want to keep it near stock overall diameter to preserve gearing for wheel torque, but also engine braking and disk brake leverage. Something in the 31.5-32.5" range would be just fine.

I agree with @bloc that XLs might be a good opportunity to keep ride supple.

In my experience, the specific tire model and type might have more impact to rolling resistance than the type of load rating. I think with most any of the more aggressive AT tires mentioned so far, with their more aggressive and prominent tread lugs, that you're going to take about a 5-10% hit on mileage. There may be milder AT tires that focus more on NVH and rolling resistance like the Micheline LTX A/T2 which may suit your use case well. On the more aggressive end of the spectrum, I would avoid some of the tires that have been out for awhile as the bar has simply been raised. Falken AT3Ws were exceptional tires in my use and the weight offered substantial and obvious differences with more aggressive and deep lugs, rim protector, excellent performance; but there are rumors of a running production change that wasn't for the better. Today, Toyo ATIII would be very high on my list.

285/60R20 or 285/65R20 would be solid tire sizes. More rare in availability but a 305/60R20 would also work well. I personally don't like 275s as that's a downgrade in some respects from stock. Anecdotally, the narrower tire on stock wheels seem to ride harsher.

What gear do you usually usually cruiser in on the highway? I use 4th, and have found a incrementally taller than stock tires puts 4th at a slightly more efficient rpm range for cruiser. At some trade to low end gearing.

Whatever tire you do get, I'd always recommend bumping up the rear tire pressure incrementally. 5-8PSI. For additional stability and reduced rolling resistance, an a cooler running tire.

 

[Madtiger]

If load range is in range of what you want, then i would get Michelin Defender XL 285/60/18. Weighs 39 lbs!!!! XL rating...max load 3086 lbs.. Great on fuel economy. And probably just as good as other P-metric AT tires when it comes to going off the beaten path.

I have KO2 in stock size...Load Range D (max load 2910 lbs)...but i don’t tow...so can’t comment...but since i don’t off-road as much as before, i may go Michelin Defender next time.

 

[Yossarian]

Since you mentioned the Terra Grappler, this is the mileage I got several years back on a trip to Santa Fe with the 1st gen TG's in the 285/60-18 XL.

Funny thing though, checking online at Nitto's website reveals that the XL weighs more than the E rated tire?

I've been meaning to inquire what the XL differences actually are.

 

[Madtiger]

Since you mentioned the Terra Grappler, this is the mileage I got several years back on a trip to Santa Fe with the 1st gen TG's in the 285/60-18 XL.


Funny thing though, checking online at Nitto's website reveals that the XL weighs more than the E rated tire?

View attachment 2470086

I've been meaning to inquire what the XL differences actually are.

Not sure about Terra Grappler...but Michelin spokesman told me that Defender XL has reinforced tread (not sidewall) compared to P-metric counterpart. Not sure if reinforcement from comes more or thicker plies (possible with other brands), but i think Michelin Defender uses different rubber compound mixture for their XL...resulting in high payload (3086 lbs) yet feather weight (39 lbs!!).

I do know that Michelin Defender LT uses different rubber compound mixture than P-metric. I ASS-U-ME that maybe the XL uses the rubber mixture of LT without needing to add plies or make plies thicker which adds weight.

The ONLY tire that may get me away from my KO2 will be Defender XL.

 

[TeCKis300]

As far as my research tells me, majority of the differences for tire loads, at least within types of tires - P/XL, LT C/D/E, and Flotation - is not so much in the plies and rubber, but in the reinforcement structure that enables higher air pressure. The air is carrying the load after all. Specifically as I understand it, it's within the steel cords of the tire. Different spec of cords, tighter pitch of cords, larger diameter cords, that sort of thing.

 

[eatSleepWoof]

As far as my research tells me, majority of the differences for tire loads, at least within types of tires - P/XL, LT C/D/E, and Flotation - is not so much in the plies and rubber, but in the reinforcement structure that enables higher air pressure. The air is carrying the load after all. Specifically as I understand it, it's within the steel cords of the tire. Different spec of cords, tighter pitch of cords, larger diameter cords, that sort of thing.

Have you come across any studies on puncture resistance? I keep coming across posts (not on Mud) asking for tire advice for "light FSR" driving, with a million people instantly screaming that without an E-rated tire the person won't make it more than 10 feet; everyone is so convinced in the "tire resistance" aspect, that having any sort of conversation is utterly impossible.

I'd love to see a study that took two identical tires in different load ratings, mounted & inflated them, and measured the force necessary to puncture them in an identical manner... and then extrapolated that to real-world driving.

 

[Madtiger]

Have you come across any studies on puncture resistance? I keep coming across posts (not on Mud) asking for tire advice for "light FSR" driving, with a million people instantly screaming that without an E-rated tire the person won't make it more than 10 feet; everyone is so convinced in the "tire resistance" aspect, that having any sort of conversation is utterly impossible.

I'd love to see a study that took two identical tires in different load ratings, mounted & inflated them, and measured the force necessary to puncture them in an identical manner... and then extrapolated that to real-world driving.

The Two tests that come to mind:

https://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=449956&d=1497265431

Tyre Testing with 4WD Action and Cooper Tires - Cooper Tires Australia | Tyres Worth Owning

Cooper Tires was proud to play host to Australian 4WD Action magazine, who came to us to do some expert tyre puncture testing. The experiment was for an article on how to make your rubber better survive in off-road conditions. Our Technical Manager, Jeff Newick, was there to assist and advise.

www.coopertires.com.au

For me, i fear most is a puncture on the edge of tread where you can’t repair it in the field or a slice on the sidewall.

EDIT: here is the video of the Cooper test:

 

[TeCKis300]

Have you come across any studies on puncture resistance? I keep coming across posts (not on Mud) asking for tire advice for "light FSR" driving, with a million people instantly screaming that without an E-rated tire the person won't make it more than 10 feet; everyone is so convinced in the "tire resistance" aspect, that having any sort of conversation is utterly impossible.

I'd love to see a study that took two identical tires in different load ratings, mounted & inflated them, and measured the force necessary to puncture them in an identical manner... and then extrapolated that to real-world driving.

I don't recall anything in particular and it's all been reading between the lines. There's a level of voodoo and proprietary information with tires and I've not been able to break through to find anything that clearly spells it out. Have to go past the marketing mumbo jumbo to actually glean anything useful. There's tire engineers on a few boards that I've learned some things from.

Model of tire and where it sits in the spectrum of tires competency and intent is probably the strongest variable to puncture resistance. Within a specific tire model, types of tire P vs LT vs Floatation in that order may be the next best indicator of resistance. Then the actual load range may contribute some minor qualities.

 

[stonepa]

I tow my Offroad camper trailer using Load E rated Michelin Latitude HP. That includes an ungodly amount of fire roads and sharp gravel / sand roads way up north. I much prefer them over a more aggressive A/T tire as my mileage is better, the highway noise is better, they don’t kick up nearly as much rock to beat my trailer with, stops me from taking chances where i could get both the truck and trailer stuck (deep mud especially) and i have had zero punctures. I love the K02 for other uses but stick with the HPs for everything else.

 

[bloc]

As far as my research tells me, majority of the differences for tire loads, at least within types of tires - P/XL, LT C/D/E, and Flotation - is not so much in the plies and rubber, but in the reinforcement structure that enables higher air pressure. The air is carrying the load after all. Specifically as I understand it, it's within the steel cords of the tire. Different spec of cords, tighter pitch of cords, larger diameter cords, that sort of thing.

Interesting details on these tires. Max pressure on a C-load KO2 is generally 50psi, 65 for D, 80 for E. More pressure = less tire flexion for a given load and speed while driving = less heat = more load carrying capability. That totally makes sense.

But, even if it's "just" a c-load KO2, you will have to raise pressure significantly between P-metric and any LT-metric tire for the same axle load. Implying there are significant differences between P-metric and at least LT-metric in how they generate heat, which likely comes from construction.

I'm not disagreeing with you.. just saying you are on-point with "voodoo and proprietary information." This isn't an easy one to unpack, but the very common misconceptions of "10 vs 12-ply" is obviously outdated.

Tires are one place I put a lot of emphasis on reviews, or other quantifiable stuff like UTQG where applicable. MTRs perform well for people in terms of traction, but then are known for weak sidewalls. If that's an issue where you wheel, avoid them. KO2's last a long time and perform well enough.. they are a known quantity. But as mentioned they are an old design that has been surpassed in the market. I'm happy enough with my ATIIs that I'll likely go with ATIIIs and hope Toyo didn't mess something up in that evolution. Time will tell.

I now have 4 colorado trips on those P-metric ATIIs and other than a big sidewall tear from a big sharp rock that likely would have been the exact same outcome from an e-load tire (it took big enough hunks out of my slider on that side), I've had zero issues. This last trip was hard on them too, testing out the new suspension.

 

[TeCKis300]

Interesting details on these tires. Max pressure on a C-load KO2 is generally 50psi, 65 for D, 80 for E. More pressure = less tire flexion for a given load and speed while driving = less heat = more load carrying capability. That totally makes sense.

But, even if it's "just" a c-load KO2, you will have to raise pressure significantly between P-metric and any LT-metric tire for the same axle load. Implying there are significant differences between P-metric and at least LT-metric in how they generate heat, which likely comes from construction.

I believe you're on the right track. Interesting understanding to bolster your hypothesis on flexion, construction, and heat. Much of a tires load capacity directly corresponds to their ability to manage heat, and stay under a critical threshold.

We agree, more air pressure, less sidewall flex, less heat.

To your point, there is also a mass component of it. More material mass, more mass flexing, more heat. This is a large reason why LT tires need more air pressure for a given load. LT tires (vs P) are inherently built with thicker construction for heavy duty use. This additional mass flexing under load creates more heat, which requires more corresponding air to maintain an equivalent overall heat profile that is under the critical threshold.

 

[Madtiger]

Please explain to me:

BFG KO2 Load Range D 285/60/18: max load = 2910 lbs, max PSI = 65, tire wgt = 53 lbs.

Michelin Defender XL 285/60/18: max load = 3086 lbs, max PSI = 50, tire wgt = 39 lbs.


Defender XL is able to carry more weight with lower PSI needed in a wimpier construction.