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Tbi or tpi

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Apr 29, 2007
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Clovis,Ca
Thinking about TBI or TPI engine into 1983 FJ60 .Which one is the easiest to program. This has to be California smog legal.Would like to install engine without moving transmission or cutting drive lines. How much do you need to modify firewall to make engine dizzy clear.Can you run with four speed to be smog legal.Already have two 305 tpi engines.
 
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Washington, UT. The Promised Land
Thinking about TBI or TPI engine into 1983 FJ60 .Which one is the easiest to program. This has to be California smog legal.Would like to install engine without moving transmission or cutting drive lines. How much do you need to modify firewall to make engine dizzy clear.Can you run with four speed to be smog legal.Already have two 305 tpi engines.

I was going to offer you some information, but then I read the dreaded word "California" which made all I had to say irrelevant. You need a complete engine from a vehicle with a manual trans. It cannot be altered in any way. It must retain every piece of emissions BS from the donor rig. You will then need to go to a referee and get passed by the smog Nazis which, from what I hear, can be a real pain.
 

ntsqd

technerd
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The engine physically doesn't have to have come from in front of a manual trans, but the engine's configuration (including the ECU) has to match a manual trans configuration for the year of the engine.

About the only programming that you would need to do is to deal with the VATS, if so equipped. All of the sensors and controls will need to be in place and functioning. If the engine of choice had a single cat, use it. If the engine of choice came with 2 cats, use them. If the engine of choice has 3-way cat(s) then that air plumbing has to work too.

My experiences with the Ref's vary. Some are jerks no matter what you say or do. Others will work with you if they see that you're trying to do things right. Do not think that you're going to pull a fast one over them. They aren't stupid, and more than likely they've already seen every fast one that you know of and more than a few that you don't know of.
 
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I've always been under the impression that the throttle body was more torque savy and easier on the computer controls. Kind of like an electric carb w/ some whistles and bells. From my days as a camaro guy, the tbi was for torque , and the tpi was for horse power, although I'm sure they could be run to do either job. Which set up will be easier to work on in the engine compartment? Oh, and :cheers:
 
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Im midway through my TBI swap. I went TBI for simplicity. There is less efficiency with the TBI and less to go wrong.
As lamb said, I was all about torque. If I was in need of HP I'd go vortec or TPI. My TBI is gonna put out 225hp which is nearly double the 2F and is conservative for a TBI build. You can get lots more outta it but the chain is only as strong as its weakest link and I was a little concerned about other part of the toyota driveline giving way. Plus I know Id have a hard time keeping my foot off the skinny pedal.
Bryan
 

Elbert

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TBI is the simplest of the fuel injection GM engines under consideration. I think you will need to make sure you get the CA version of the engine as I noticed in some of the older enignes there were specific CA versions of these engines...ie where everyone else did not have a smog pump...the CA engine did etc. YOu provally would be best off with getting a matched engine and trans...all together along with the comptuer it comes with and everything you can get from under the hood of the donor vehicle. Some buick roadmasters, and caprices had these engines (TBI 5.7) along with the trucks.

ON the TBI engines you don't really program the ECM..its has a chip that can be replaced. I think a TBI would be your best route...go with teh complete matching engine, trans, and ECM. Just my veiw.
 
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TBI will be quite a bit simpler. As far as performance tpi will give you a little more horspower and a little more torque. Tpi motors can really make a lot of torque. TPI also looks awesome in my opinion.

For the record I went tbi as its the simplest and extremely reliable. Its also pretty efficient. My SOA 5.7 4l60e fj60 on 35s gets better mileage than my 06 2500hd with the 6.0 . About 13.5-14.5 in town and 15-17 on the highway depending how i'm driving. The only reason I would switch to tpi is for looks. You can get plently out of the tbi for the land cruiser. Any more than around what lehi guy has 300hp 400lbs of torque you might as well go with something like the 6.0 where a bolt on turbo gets you 625hp on stock internals.
 
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Bakersfield CA.
TBI/TPI

A TBI motor 1994 or older you can use your 4/speed.
you have to keep ALL smog equipment that came with that motor. stock ex/mani , cats, and so on..
If you go with a newer motor you will need to keep the
stock trans.
I got a manual from downey toyota that explanes it all.
by all means do your homework before you start, it can
get real expensive if you take a car to a ref and it is
wrong..
good luck..:steer:
 

ntsqd

technerd
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snippage
A TBI motor 1994 or older you can use your 4/speed.
Only if the engine originally had a manual trans behind it. You have to match the original configuration. Can not use an auto trans ECU with a manual, and can not use a manual trans ECU with an auto.
Don't know where the '94 vintage came from, but '96 is the magic year. It was then that all engines went to OBD II, which is good for diagnostics, but more difficult for swaps.
 
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For you guys behind the Kalifornia Kurtain, can you swap heads on a TBI motor? There are some Vortec clones on the market that will accept both styles of GM intake manifold bolt patterns meaning you could retain the EGR stuff and have a much better flowing head. They wouldn't know if you swapped a cam would they as long as it passes? I just wonder what can be done to enhance the performance of the TBI in Cali and still get by the smoggers.
 
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Not sure about swappin heads, but check out Turners recycling yard off of Golden state. Bought a couple of motors for the old "maro from him. Been there forever. You prolly already knew that tho
 

ntsqd

technerd
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For you guys behind the Kalifornia Kurtain, can you swap heads on a TBI motor? There are some Vortec clones on the market that will accept both styles of GM intake manifold bolt patterns meaning you could retain the EGR stuff and have a much better flowing head. They wouldn't know if you swapped a cam would they as long as it passes? I just wonder what can be done to enhance the performance of the TBI in Cali and still get by the smoggers.

The regular inspectors may or may not detect them. The Ref's that we need to get past and have put a label on the truck so that the regular guys know what they're looking at, probably will catch them. So if they are a smog legal replacement part for the donor's year/application - OR carry an E.O. number for the donor's year/application then they'll fly right through.

Easiest is to start with a donor that runs well enough to pass. Make the swap & get it labeled. Then make the mods that the regular guy won't catch.

An oddity that used to exist, and may still I don't know, is that you could do an "Upgrade." For instance say that you had a carb vintage car and you upgraded it to the same OE's later EFI. It used to be that you did not need to meet the newer smog numbers, your car was still smogged to it's original vintage specs. AND it only had to have the emissions equipment that it came with. So say it didn't have EGR originally, but the new EFI intake does. By this rule the EGR didn't need to be there. Same would be true of any emissions system not original to the car, but part of the upgrade.

The reason that I mention this as something worth exploring is that it might be more beneficial to convert to the same year as the FJ carb'd V8. Then down the road a piece do the "Upgrade". I don't know that this option still exists or not, but it used to and might bear fruit.
 
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The regular inspectors may or may not detect them. The Ref's that we need to get past and have put a label on the truck so that the regular guys know what they're looking at, probably will catch them. So if they are a smog legal replacement part for the donor's year/application - OR carry an E.O. number for the donor's year/application then they'll fly right through.

Easiest is to start with a donor that runs well enough to pass. Make the swap & get it labeled. Then make the mods that the regular guy won't catch.

An oddity that used to exist, and may still I don't know, is that you could do an "Upgrade." For instance say that you had a carb vintage car and you upgraded it to the same OE's later EFI. It used to be that you did not need to meet the newer smog numbers, your car was still smogged to it's original vintage specs. AND it only had to have the emissions equipment that it came with. So say it didn't have EGR originally, but the new EFI intake does. By this rule the EGR didn't need to be there. Same would be true of any emissions system not original to the car, but part of the upgrade.

The reason that I mention this as something worth exploring is that it might be more beneficial to convert to the same year as the FJ carb'd V8. Then down the road a piece do the "Upgrade". I don't know that this option still exists or not, but it used to and might bear fruit.

Its simple here in Utah. Only a few counties require emissions, and the guys in charge of air quality are all for engine upgrades. What is required with upgraded technology (like going carb to FI) are three things only; O2 feedback (oxygen sensor) evaporative emissions (charcoal canister and plumbing) and a cat. If you have that and pass the tailpipe test, you're in for life and any station can do your emissions in the future.
 
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Boise, ID
It is very simple here in Idaho, only one county tests (Ada, where Boise is), -1980 are exempt, 1981-1995 get a tailpipe sniff, 1984- need a CAT, 1996- get the OBDII plugin check.

I find myself with a 1983 FJ60, and am also wondering TBI or TPI (or Vortec). Rather than hijack this thread, I'll start my own...just glad for smog purposes I'm not in California!
 

ntsqd

technerd
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Be glad for what you've got now. Like it or not, KA type emissions testing etc. is headed your way. If you're in a high population density area I'd plan on it sooner rather than later. I've said this before here and on other forums and been scoffed at. Then it happens and those guys are scrambling to find the 'worthless' emissions carp that they threw away.

Just sayin.....
 

Mace

rock scientist..
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Be glad for what you've got now. Like it or not, KA type emissions testing etc. is headed your way. If you're in a high population density area I'd plan on it sooner rather than later. I've said this before here and on other forums and been scoffed at. Then it happens and those guys are scrambling to find the 'worthless' emissions carp that they threw away.

Just sayin.....

Fact..

California is not any tougher than the rest of the states. It just mostly follows the Federal guidelines for engine swaps. Heck, Nevada is sometimes harder than Cali is..

There was a reason it was actually easier to drop in the ferd motor that I had then find all of the stock 2F emissions stuff...
 
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I really wish it was all performance based. My desmogged 2F with a header, no EGR, no air pump and a Weber carb ran cleaner at the pipe (we test on a dyno here) than it did will all that stuff in place. The 350 runs cleanest of all. Sort of makes you wonder if we have not lost sight of the goal becuase we're too caught up in the method.
 

ntsqd

technerd
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The problem is that the dyno tests only really test two conditions. The EPA test is a whole simulated drive cycle of some sort. They test all or most possible emissions scenarios, which our dyno tests really can't do. It is very possible that our vehicles could pass these fairly simply tests and still not conform to the EPA requirements.

The OE aren't looking for ways to spend money. If an emissions part isn't necessary they aren't going to install it on a whim. The reason that the 2F has all of those vacuum hoses and odd vacuum driven logic operators is because the OE's were resistant to going to on-board computers due to their expense. Even early EFI wasn't real 'clean' because they still had vacuum logic and carb's on the brain. Look at how much cleaner the TBI's are than a fully smogable 3FE, they show that the engineers finally started to grasp the power of what they could do for emissions with just programming and little hardware.
 

Mace

rock scientist..
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I really wish it was all performance based. My desmogged 2F with a header, no EGR, no air pump and a Weber carb ran cleaner at the pipe (we test on a dyno here) than it did will all that stuff in place. The 350 runs cleanest of all. Sort of makes you wonder if we have not lost sight of the goal becuase we're too caught up in the method.

Your 2F probably did not run cleaner than it did off the showroom floor tho. Chances are, the stuff you replaced/removed was failing and that was the reason for the poor emissions.

If the equipment is functioning the way it is supposed to be, a smogg equipped car will pollute less..
 

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