Swapping '78 FJ40 2F into '84 FJ60 (1 Viewer)

[kenavt]

Hey folks, came across a '78 FJ40 2F engine that I could swap into my '84 FJ60 (see my build thread for more background on why). I'd be keeping my original 4-speed and transfer case. Been digging quite a bit through MUD and have a few questions and thoughts on how well this swap will work out. Trying to decide if should go for this, or hold out for a 2F out of a FJ60 for the rig.

Looks like the two main differences people talk about between the '78 and '84 2Fs are:

• Switch from "domed" pistons with larger combustion chamber in the head pre-07/80, to "flat-topped" pistons with smaller chamber head. Don't want to use the wrong head with
  • What are the pros/cons of each setup? I read somewhere the earlier engines make less power (they appear rated the same 135hp/210lb-ft) but are less reliable, is that true?
  • If the older "domed" pistons are worse, I might just wait for a more powerful post-07/80 engine.
• Tapped holes missing from the block for power steering pump; that only came in '79 (found pics at power steering pump mounting advice)
  • I need to check if this 2F has that or not. But it also comes with a nice power steering pump so maybe it doesn't even matter since it's mounted somehow, I'm thinking...

So my questions...

• Any other big differences I should be on the lookout for?
• How many accessories could come over? In general the distributor, headers, power steering pump, etc look better on the FJ40 2F so I'd like to use them wherever possible. Either way I'm going to keep all the emissions equipment since I still need to comply with Cali smog.

Appreciate the help, thank you great MUD wizards!

 

[kenavt]

Alright, done more research and have figured out some things and have more focused questions on the others that probably don't matter...

For domed (and open combustion chamber) vs. flat pistons (closed combustion chamber), it seems like the power output is probably pretty similar even though the compression ratio is difference. Emissions (since I'm in Cali) are probably also a wash - lower compression ratio means more CO2 but less NOX. Maybe less fuel efficiency, but putting in a H55F would make a much larger difference for that.

For the power steering pump, this previous 2F has a nice pump (as mentioned) that has brackets.

With regards to other accessories... I think a lot of things will transfer over (maybe not the headers, but probably a lot else). I can probably figure that out as I go along.

I'm leaning towards taking this 2F. Mildly worried about smog and power with the different pistons and head, but I figure since Toyota didn't change the power rating of the engine, it's probably a wash. And smog probably depends just as much on whether my emissions equipment are good or not.

 

[HemiAlex]

I wouldn’t swap a different generation of the same model of engine in if I were dealing with smog. I’ve seen people not pass smog with far less out of place.

 

[kenavt]

I wouldn’t swap a different generation of the same model of engine in if I were dealing with smog. I’ve seen people not pass smog with far less out of place.

Do the earlier 2Fs count as a different generation? Before looking into this swap, hadn’t heard about these detailed changes at all... figure they didn’t really matter much.

I figure that the long block and everything else visually look the same (so should pass visual checks). Maybe the actual emissions would be different... I really don’t know how much slack Cali emissions have if you’re running stock equipment.

 

[SteveH]

Do the earlier 2Fs count as a different generation?

A determined smog cop could determine that the engine block production date is a older than your truck, based on the number stamped on the block by the distributor and the info on SOR's website. Not sure if they would...

 

[OSS]

I believe (but could be mistaken) that In CA it's illegal to swap an older model engine into a newer vehicle. You've got to be absolutely certain it's legal (in writing) before attempting it.
Whether a smog shop in a bad area of town would enforce that law is another topic.

Personally- I'd never swap a "78 2F into a 60 no mater how nice it was. I'd wait & save up to get the correct motor

 

[Roger Martiinez]

I have an older well-rebuilt 2F engine (Voodoo Cruisers) from a FJ40 in my 1984 FJ60. I am very happy with it, but there are complications. The most challenging issue is the absence (on an older 2F) of the bolts to hold the FJ60 factory power steering bracket. This is resolved with readily available aftermarket power steering pump brackets for a Saginaw power steering pump, which I find superior to the original FJ60 power steering pump. The Saginaw pump provides greater reliability than the constant replacement of leaking rebuilt FJ60 power steering pumps. The FJ60 engine mount bracket from your existing engine bolts right in place on the older 2F and will accommodate the FJ60 smog pump as well (or a pulley that deletes the smog pump).

In my case the older, rebuilt FJ40 2F worked well for me especially because my original FJ60 2F had almost 400,000 miles and fatally threw a rod straight through the block.

Good luck with your future swap.

 

[kenavt]

Do the earlier 2Fs count as a different generation?

A determined smog cop could determine that the engine block production date is a older than your truck, based on the number stamped on the block by the distributor and the info on SOR's website. Not sure if they would...

I believe (but could be mistaken) that In CA it's illegal to swap an older model engine into a newer vehicle. You've got to be absolutely certain it's legal (in writing) before attempting it.
Whether a smog shop in a bad area of town would enforce that law is another topic.

Personally- I'd never swap a "78 2F into a 60 no mater how nice it was. I'd wait & save up to get the correct motor

Yes, I hadn't thought of this before I agree that I'm pretty sure that this would be illegal. I'd be very surprised if I got caught doing this - if a smog shop knew enough to cross-reference the engine serial number to check that it wasn't an older engine. That implies that they know enough about these engines to notice (even though visually this would be identical to any other '84 FJ60). But I shouldn't really take my chances on that, that would be unwise. Thanks for pointing this out! I think I'll pass on this engine as a result, rather be safe then sorry.

I have an older well-rebuilt 2F engine (Voodoo Cruisers) from a FJ40 in my 1984 FJ60. I am very happy with it, but there are complications. The most challenging issue is the absence (on an older 2F) of the bolts to hold the FJ60 factory power steering bracket. This is resolved with readily available aftermarket power steering pump brackets for a Saginaw power steering pump, which I find superior to the original FJ60 power steering pump. The Saginaw pump provides greater reliability than the constant replacement of leaking rebuilt FJ60 power steering pumps. The FJ60 engine mount bracket from your existing engine bolts right in place on the older 2F and will accommodate the FJ60 smog pump as well (or a pulley that deletes the smog pump).

In my case the older, rebuilt FJ40 2F worked well for me especially because my original FJ60 2F had almost 400,000 miles and fatally threw a rod straight through the block.

Good luck with your future swap.

Glad to hear your experience with your FJ40 2F has worked out quite well. Pretty sure the engine I'm looking at has the aftermarket power steering pump brackets. Glad to hear that my current engine mount brackets should bolt right in and accommodate my old smog pump too!

 

[3_puppies]

Yes, I hadn't thought of this before I agree that I'm pretty sure that this would be illegal. I'd be very surprised if I got caught doing this - if a smog shop knew enough to cross-reference the engine serial number to check that it wasn't an older engine. That implies that they know enough about these engines to notice (even though visually this would be identical to any other '84 FJ60). But I shouldn't really take my chances on that, that would be unwise. Thanks for pointing this out! I think I'll pass on this engine as a result, rather be safe then sorry.

almost identical in looks, the valve cover on the older engine will be the tall version with push in cap, versus the screw in cap and it's in a different place on the valve cover
the thermostat housing will be different also 2 bolt versus 4 bolt
small differences that most likely would not get caught unless the inspector is a LC guy.
generally the rig is going to be older than the guy inspecting it.

 

[Roger Martiinez]

Yes, I hadn't thought of this before I agree that I'm pretty sure that this would be illegal. I'd be very surprised if I got caught doing this - if a smog shop knew enough to cross-reference the engine serial number to check that it wasn't an older engine. That implies that they know enough about these engines to notice (even though visually this would be identical to any other '84 FJ60). But I shouldn't really take my chances on that, that would be unwise. Thanks for pointing this out! I think I'll pass on this engine as a result, rather be safe then sorry.



Glad to hear your experience with your FJ40 2F has worked out quite well. Pretty sure the engine I'm looking at has the aftermarket power steering pump brackets. Glad to hear that my current engine mount brackets should bolt right in and accommodate my old smog pump too!

Very thoughtful of you to follow-up. Cheers!

 

[kenavt]

Following up on the "is this legal in CA" conversation... I think it would be legal to swap an earlier 2F into a later Cruiser per BAR guidelines. I thin it would be classified as an "engine replacement": "A new, rebuilt, remanufactured, or used engine of the same make, number of cylinders, and engine family (test group) as the original engine with the original emission controls reinstalled" (per - Bureau of Automotive Repair). That's opposed to an engine change, which is when you need to visit a referee and go through the whole rigamarole. I cannot find any additional requirements/things you need to do if you're just doing an engine replacement... as long as the test group is the same.

Does anyone with a 2F California FJ40 pre-79 want to check and see what their test group is? It should be on some sort of label under the hood (Locating vehicle "Test Group" or "Engine Family" Number | California Air Resources Board). I'm away from home at the moment or else I would check my FJ60 for its label.

 

[kenavt]

Alright, got home and couldn't find my label on my FJ60. But I did dig up a few interesting things for anyone following along at home, minutiae and such below. If you want to skip ahead past the tables, feel free to do that for info specific to my situation.

• An awesome library of FJ40 decals (FJ40 Decals) including "Emission Data Decals" which contain the emissions info! There's a '78 decal that labels the engine family as 2F(C) and EVAP family as EV-F, which seems consistent among a few different years (A. Emissions Data Detail - 1978 CAL).
• However, the '82 decal has a much more specific engine family: CTY4.2T2ABB1, same EVAP family EV-F (see A. Emissions Data Detail - 1982 CAL (ph)).
• Engine families are required to be 10-digit numbers by the EPA per https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/msprog/ordiesel/documents/doors/userguide-enginefamily.pdf
• There is a format for these 10-digit engine family codes. First character is model year, then letter code for manufacturer, then type, then displacement, then some unique characters. This may only be applicable directly for mid-90s and after cars, but it seems somewhat relevant to the numbers I dug up from 1978-1990. See appendix D of https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/classic//diesel/documents/ciguide.pdf

• Some google-fu found me to On-Road New Vehicle & Engine Certification Program, which appears to be the official CARB list of permitted engine families/test groups and their parameters ("executive orders"). From reading through this site I built the table below, which I believe is how CARB sees it (and aligns with the decals from the library above). Some of the forms even have copies of the decals in them on the last page. For posterity: this page may disappear soon per a note near the bottom.

Year	Engine Family	CA Hydrocarbon grams/mile	CA CO grams/mile	CA Nitrogen Oxides grams/mile	Link
1975	???
1976	2F (C)	0.8	13	1.7	https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/classic//msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/1976/toyota_ldt_a0140012_4d2_ta0.pdf
1977	2F (C)	0.6	13	1.6	https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/classic//msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/1977/toyota_ldt_a0140016_4d23_ta0.pdf
1978	2F (C)	0.55	12.4	1.4	https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/classic//msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/1978/toyota_ldt_a0140017_4d2_ta0.pdf
1979	2F (C)	0.20	3.3	1.5	https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/classic//msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/1979/toyota_ldt_a0140026_4d23_ta0.pdf
1980	2F (C)	0.20	3.3	1.5	https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/classic//msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/1980/toyota_ldt_a0140031_4d2_ta0.pdf
1981	BTY4.2T2AB1	0.19	3.4	1.1	https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/classic//msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/1981/toyota_ldt_a0140040_4d2_ta0.pdf
1982	CTY4.2T2ABB1	0.50	9.0	1.5	https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/classic//msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/1982/toyota_ldt_a0140047_4d2_ta0.pdf
1983	???
1984	ETY4.2T2AFF4	0.80	10	2.3	https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/classic//msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/1984/toyota_ldt_p0140003_4d2_ta0.pdf
1985	???
1986	GTY4.2T2AFF6	0.80	10	2.3	https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/classic//msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/1986/toyota_ldt_p0140005_4d2_ta0.pdf
1987	???
1988 (3F)	JTY4.0T5FBB3	0.50	9.0	1.0	https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/classic//msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/1988/toyota_ldt_a0140124r1_4d0_ta0.pdf

Year	Engine Family	Fed Hydrocarbon grams/mile	Fed CO grams/mile	Fed Nitrogen Oxide grams/mile
1978-1981	-	-	-	-
1982	CTY4.2T2ABB1	0.19	3.4	1.1
1984	ETY4.2T2AFF4	0.37	6	1.0
1986	GTY4.2T2AFF6	0.30	5	0.7
1988 (3F)	JTY4.OT5FBB3	0.15	1.7	0.24

Thoughts from this research

• The emissions standards for the engines really vary on a year-by-year basis... makes me wonder if they actually hold different model years to different standards today. It's particularly interesting that the pre-81 2Fs were held to similar tailpipe emissions numbers as to post-81 2Fs (and I think implies that an older engine wouldn't show up in tailpipe tests).
• Pre-81 is fine to mix with pre-81 since they all have the same engine family, no problems. After that, the EPA changed their engine test family nomenclature which makes things more confusing. (I think they also changed it again in the mid-90s but that's outside the scope today )
• Since each year post-80 is a different test group, I think a strict reading of the law would be that post-81 2Fs should NOT be swappable between model years. But that should apply to any engine replacements for ANY cars, since the first character is the year - which changes every year! But I definitely think the intent - and in practice, what is done and allowed - allows engine replacements from different years.
• Long story short: this didn't clear up anything for me around legality, getting more information somehow made this more grey. I would think based on the tailpipe tests that earlier 2Fs are ok to "replace" but they do have different engine family numbers.