SUV Battle: 200 vs 300, and everything else

[greynolds]

I love Land Rovers. After owning a RRC and a Disco, I’ve stayed away. But when working, they were outstanding and a lot of fun to drive.

Fix the reliability issue, and I’ll get another one.

Same - after owning a 1995 Disco and 2014 RR, I’m done until I can be convinced that their reliability has improved significantly to a level that at least is in the same area code as Toyota, which most likely won’t happen in my lifetime.

Other new options like Ineos and Rivian look interesting, but I’m not going to be a beta tester for either.

 

[Boss Hog]

Same - after owning a 1995 Disco and 2014 RR, I’m done until I can be convinced that their reliability has improved significantly to a level that at least is in the same area code as Toyota, which most likely won’t happen in my lifetime.

Other new options like Ineos and Rivian look interesting, but I’m not going to be a beta tester for either.

Same. I’m sticking with what I know for the foreseeable future.

“Quit playin away games…” Avon Barksdale: The Wire

 

[NY2LA]

This test puzzles me. I'm wondering if the LC is handicapped by the stock tires. I'm in Wisconsin wilderness right now and have been pushing new limits on my 200 and keep being amazed. Up and down extremely steep wet muddy hills with zero traction loss: driving along the beach and even a bit into the tide with ease; loose dirt... The video vehicle seems totally different.

 

[AnyMal]

The thing is, some of the stuff I want like a panoramic sunroof and safari windows does nothing to impact reliability.
It's just part of the price you pay to be in bed with the most regressive brand in the business, TOYOTA.

Even worse, Instead of getting nice things, i had to give up my favorite cool distinguishing feature from my 100>200 upgrade.
Rear third window venting. Now the 300 has no split hatch, and they didn't even bother to let the rear tailgate window roll down.
Which if anything i bet will be pulled from the next 4 runner for some backwards reasoning only a Toyota fanboy will accept.

The competition is exploding with innovative features and the grenadier will clean up any hardcore enthusiast business left.
Ive said it a thousand times, i don't believe in the future direction of the platform or the brand.

 

[Boss Hog]

The thing is, some of the stuff I want like a panoramic sunroof and safari windows does nothing to impact reliability.
It's just part of the price you pay to be in bed with the most regressive brand in the business, TOYOTA.

Even worse, Instead of getting nice things, i had to give up my favorite cool distinguishing feature from my 100>200 upgrade.
Rear third window venting. Now the 300 has no split hatch, and they didn't even bother to let the rear tailgate window roll down.
Which if anything i bet will be pulled from the next 4 runner for some backwards reasoning only a Toyota fanboy will accept.

The competition is exploding with innovative features and the grenadier will clean up any hardcore enthusiast business left.
Ive said it a thousand times, i don't believe in the future direction of the platform or the brand.

Toyota doesn’t innovate. They replicate and improve. Isn’t that how the 40-series came into being? Essentially replicating-and improving-on the Willy’s GP?

Land Rover starts to sell luxury SUVs…Toyota decides to pursue that market with the 80-series. Air suspension was an LR thing before it was tried in the Lexus.

All of which is moot, of course, because the Land Cruiser is no longer offered here…

 

[AnyMal]

Toyota doesn’t innovate. They replicate and improve. Isn’t that how the 40-series came into being? Essentially replicating-and improving-on the Willy’s GP?

Land Rover starts to sell luxury SUVs…Toyota decides to pursue that market with the 80-series. Air suspension was an LR thing before it was tried in the Lexus.

All of which is moot, of course, because the Land Cruiser is no longer offered here…

Look, im not trying to get into anything about Toyota but I know what they do well and what they don't. Let's just say that that list is extremely one sided and we can leave it at that and I think we can all agree. It's how we weigh the items on that list that brings us all here right? Dependability of course is of extreme value, but like all things theres a limit. If not for that we would be riding bicycles or something pedal powered to get around. Suffice to say theres a lot more nuance to this conversation.
This is more about looking at the video and the two things that are loud and clear. The comp is killing it, and the 300 is a MARGINAL improvement at best.

Personally, I don't like to drive cars with a cheap interior but god knows I would make as many exceptions as it takes when it comes to the LC. Im lucky that the LX is about as good as I can hope to achieve in what I'm looking for but there are exceptions galore. Many people have avoided it until now and thanks to TOYOTA they no longer have a choice. We can clearly see the influxes on the forum of new LXs as we waive goodbye to the LC.

My point is, moderation is good when its done tastefully, not when it becomes a lead weight chained around your ankle. The LX vs LC sales kind of demonstrate what the US consumer is looking for very well. And guess what, they want more not less. It's not a trend thats even specific to the auto industry, it's just how things progress once living standards are improved and is basic human nature.

AHC is another thing i just dont want to talk about but I will say this. Its not Lexus specific, nor did it originate in Lexus, nor was it like you said invented by Toyota.
It isnt air suspension either its hydraulic but AHC die hards like myself have gone over that umpteen times now. The important bit is that I know myself and a few others here that will immediately walk away if an adjustable suspension is not in the works for the LX 300 variants. Everyone else has it.

Toyota needs to replicate me a panoramic sunroof that has been industry standard for a decade and then I will entertain all the good things that they might do in the future. Right now, im just looking at the competition enviously and have to remind myself that all of the new GM tahoes and escalades 2020-21 are bending pushrods.
DO NOT mistake that for praises on Toyota, they don't deserve that. They deserve to be mocked over the 300 and the numerous other missteps they have taken over the last 10 years. Theres only so long most people will tolerate missing comforts and features that have no impact on the things they value until they realize that they can take a small hit in one category to get a lot more back everywhere else. Consumer expectations are constantly evolving. This is not a good recipe for the future of the company or platform. It's just bad business.

Don't take any of this the wrong way or personally my frustrations are with Toyota not you or anyone here. Sorry for the rant.
Im just not gonna tolerate people praising a TTV6 in the 300 series that didn't afford them a single mile in additional range without saying anything. Its just dumb.

 

[stonepa]

Toyota is not in business to innovate. May be hard for some to believe but Toyota is, and always has been, a FINANCE company, not an engineering company (like Honda). They build vehicles solely to make money. They take proven technology , replicate it across vehicle lines, manufacture as efficiently and as high a quality as possible, and sell without discounts. Every single thing they do is focused on financial implications.

 

[boringdriver]

I mean they did make the LF-A.

 

[AnyMal]

I mean they did make the LF-A.

As a Lexus yes lol.
They also made the Prius and trickled out hybridization across their fleet.
Now when you mention a hybrid LC you hear a thousand reasons why thats not a good idea and is too radical when Toyota have basically pioneered it for the mainstream and in production since 1997.

Now im looking at this:

 

[Boss Hog]

Look, im not trying to get into anything about Toyota but I know what they do well and what they don't. Let's just say that that list is extremely one sided and we can leave it at that and I think we can all agree. It's how we weigh the items on that list that brings us all here right? Dependability of course is of extreme value, but like all things theres a limit. If not for that we would be riding bicycles or something pedal powered to get around. Suffice to say theres a lot more nuance to this conversation.
This is more about looking at the video and the two things that are loud and clear. The comp is killing it, and the 300 is a MARGINAL improvement at best.

Personally, I don't like to drive cars with a cheap interior but god knows I would make as many exceptions as it takes when it comes to the LC. Im lucky that the LX is about as good as I can hope to achieve in what I'm looking for but there are exceptions galore. Many people have avoided it until now and thanks to TOYOTA they no longer have a choice. We can clearly see the influxes on the forum of new LXs as we waive goodbye to the LC.

My point is, moderation is good when its done tastefully, not when it becomes a lead weight chained around your ankle. The LX vs LC sales kind of demonstrate what the US consumer is looking for very well. And guess what, they want more not less. It's not a trend thats even specific to the auto industry, it's just how things progress once living standards are improved and is basic human nature.

AHC is another thing i just dont want to talk about but I will say this. Its not Lexus specific, nor did it originate in Lexus, nor was it like you said invented by Toyota.
It isnt air suspension either its hydraulic but AHC die hards like myself have gone over that umpteen times now. The important bit is that I know myself and a few others here that will immediately walk away if an adjustable suspension is not in the works for the LX 300 variants. Everyone else has it.

Toyota needs to replicate me a panoramic sunroof that has been industry standard for a decade and then I will entertain all the good things that they might do in the future. Right now, im just looking at the competition enviously and have to remind myself that all of the new GM tahoes and escalades 2020-21 are bending pushrods.
DO NOT mistake that for praises on Toyota, they don't deserve that. They deserve to be mocked over the 300 and the numerous other missteps they have taken over the last 10 years. Theres only so long most people will tolerate missing comforts and features that have no impact on the things they value until they realize that they can take a small hit in one category to get a lot more back everywhere else. Consumer expectations are constantly evolving. This is not a good recipe for the future of the company or platform. It's just bad business.

Don't take any of this the wrong way or personally my frustrations are with Toyota not you or anyone here. Sorry for the rant.
Im just not gonna tolerate people praising a TTV6 in the 300 series that didn't afford them a single mile in additional range without saying anything. Its just dumb.

No offense. And I said LR (Land Rover) was the innovator of air suspension in the US market. Not Lexus. Otherwise, I agree with most of what you said.

 

[stonepa]

I mean they did make the LF-A.

Even in the case of the LFA, a lot of the innovative engineering was done by Yamaha. Most of the rest was off the shelf Toyota parts with some nice carbon fiber thrown in.

 

[AnyMal]

No offense. And I said LR (Land Rover) was the innovator of air suspension in the US market. Not Lexus. Otherwise, I agree with most of what you said.

Yes sorry thats what I meant, you said that they did not create it and just replicated. I meant to reinforce your point but it was worded poorly.
Apparently we owe AHC to Citroen development.

 

[AnyMal]

Even in the case of the LFA, a lot of the innovative engineering was done by Yamaha. Most of the rest was off the shelf Toyota parts with some nice carbon fiber thrown in.

@Boss Hog. And apparently we owe the LFA to Yamaha lol. ^^^

We also have a BMW Toyota supra now, or is it a Toyota BMW Z4? IDK but I know they can do more and people have to demand more.
Market spoke with the LC 200, it will speak again.

 

[coleAK]

This test puzzles me. I'm wondering if the LC is handicapped by the stock tires. I'm in Wisconsin wilderness right now and have been pushing new limits on my 200 and keep being amazed. Up and down extremely steep wet muddy hills with zero traction loss: driving along the beach and even a bit into the tide with ease; loose dirt... The video vehicle seems totally different.

Many of the trucks were on crappy tires. The RR and G had the worst tires of the bunch.

 

[Boss Hog]

Many of the trucks were on crappy tires. The RR and G had the worst tires of the bunch.

Now that you mention it, they really should standardize that part of the test in order for it to be a “test”. Otherwise it’s more of a review…

 

[coleAK]

Toyota doesn’t innovate. They replicate and improve. Isn’t that how the 40-series came into being? Essentially replicating-and improving-on the Willy’s GP?

Land Rover starts to sell luxury SUVs…Toyota decides to pursue that market with the 80-series. Air suspension was an LR thing before it was tried in the Lexus.

All of which is moot, of course, because the Land Cruiser is no longer offered here…

Lexus AHC is hydraulic, not air. GM developed the first air suspension in The 1950’s. Mercedes were the first to use it more widely on production cars In the 1960’s, Rover didn’t use air until the 1990’s.

 

[NY2LA]

Now that you mention it, they really should standardize that part of the test in order for it to be a “test”. Otherwise it’s more of a review…

Agreed.

 

[AnyMal]

Many of the trucks were on crappy tires. The RR and G had the worst tires of the bunch.

That was the best part about watching that G destroy the course. Remember road tires aside, in all the AMGs suspension is tuned for street use not articulation.
The channel is usually really good about tire parity and wont take slicks mudding like some of the others and wonder whats wrong.
Im still a fan however because doing these massive real life offroad comparisons is rare for SUVs when ppl are looking for meaningless 0-60 times.

 

[NY2LA]

That was the best part about watching that G destroy the course. Remember road tires aside, in all the AMGs suspension is tuned for street use not articulation.
The channel is usually really good about tire parity and wont take slicks mudding like some of the others and wonder whats wrong

I wish I had taken a picture of the steep mud trail that got me down here, but at least here I am driving out of the tide yesterday. Lo mode with center diff on. Perfect traction on KO2s.

 

[NYC570]

@Boss Hog. And apparently we owe the LFA to Yamaha lol. ^^^

We also have a BMW Toyota supra now, or is it a Toyota BMW Z4? IDK but I know they can do more and people have to demand more.
Market spoke with the LC 200, it will speak again.

I'm not sure if some of you know this but toyota is a large shareholder at Yamaha. This is why they have collaborated and developed several engines together.