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still running rich

Discussion in '60-Series Wagons' started by swank60, Mar 6, 2004.

  1. swank60

    swank60

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    I've cleaned out the air injector crap on the driver's side fender, new air cleaner, plugs, wires, dist cap, rotor, new rebuilt carb, check the valve clearance, timing seems to be okay, egr seems to be working fine, the intake manifold isn't cracked...

    WTF?!

    The only thing that I can think of that could be an issue is that my cooling system works really, really well, and the temp guage never gets to the middle - it's always about a quarter of the way up in the winter, a third of the way up in summer. I put a new radiator and thermostat in it last year after the org crap gave up...could that effect it? is there a computer control on the older 60s that uses engine temp to control fuel mix? (not that that would make sense at all...)

    What about the flap/vlave that opens and closes inside the exhaust manifold that redirects hot air up toward the intake manifold? Could that be a problem?

    I'm running out of ideas here.
     
  2. Landpimp

    Landpimp

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    engine temp will only effect the 2 sensors(BSVS I think) below the t-stat(one is violet the other purpul(sp). These open when warm, one effects the advance(on dizzy) the other is the choke opener or that other choke dealy(forget what its called) These are easy to test. When warm you should be able to blow in the outer port and air will come out the inner port. When cold it will not blow out the inner port. it would have to be running VERY cool to have these not open(which I find VERY unlikely), I recall they open at under 100deg. So check em and see if they work, but I dont think that your problem.

    have you adjusted the carb? to me it sounds like a carb problem. or some other emmision stuff....but I can't think of what would make it run rich. Is you choke opening/closing all the way?

    Sorry brain not working well today.....sinus infection.
     
  3. swank60

    swank60

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    What sort of adjustments could I make to the carb that would effect the fuel mix? I know it's a dumb question, but at this point, I've got to ask.

    Choke is working perfectly.

    On the carb, I bought a rebuilt unit from cruiserparts.net and replaced what I had on it - no change. I just finished checking the manifold bolts, and they're good and tight too.

    I also found one or two vac leaks, but got them squared away. Didn't make any difference though.
     
  4. swank60

    swank60

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    Oh, and the BVSV is good too. I replaced it this afternoon as well.
     
  5. Pin_Head

    Pin_Head

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    Refresh my memory: How do you know it is running rich? Under what circumstances is it running rich, idle or at cruising speed? Desmoged?

    If you just got the rebuilt carb, I would consider sending it back and getting a new one. Not everyone rebuilds them right.
     
  6. swank60

    swank60

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    In the smog test, the HCs were high (on the other carb)
    these were the #s
    1540 RPM - high speed test (25 MPH)
    HC(PPM): standard 310 - Mine: 479
    CO(%) 2.49 standard - Mine: 4.44
    CO2 - Mine: 11.9
    O2 - mine: 0.2
    NOx Standard 2198 - Mine: 449
    dilution(%) >6 Mine: 16.3

    Low Speed (15mph) 1549 RPM
    HC(PPM): standard 315 - Mine: 512
    CO(%) 1.80 standard - Mine: 4.34
    CO2 - Mine: 11.9
    O2 - mine: 0.2
    NOx Standard 2359 - Mine: 475
    dilution(%) >6 Mine: 16.2

    Also, the plugs are sooty black, and there's black smoke (and soot) out of the tail pipe.

    Also, I tested it with another coil, too, just in case.

    One thing I am having a hard time with is confirming the timing. I can't really see the markings on the flywheel. Not sure how to go about it to get a for sure reading. I've never monkyed with the timing on this thing and it seems like a pain.
     
  7. swank60

    swank60

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    forgot - it's not desmogged. In fact, I had to put a new smog pump in it maybe 2 years ago. Old one locked up.
     
  8. IDave

    IDave

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    What elevation do you live at?
     
  9. Pin_Head

    Pin_Head

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    The smog numbers are from before the carb was rebuilt?
    What are the numbers after the rebuild?

    It's not that rich or your CO would be higher. Are your sure that the compression is OK? A burned exhaust valve will cause high HC numbers.
     
  10. swank60

    swank60

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    I'm not sure of the elevation. I live in Fort Worth, TX.

    I haven't had the smog test done again - why spend the $40 when nothing has changed.

    what should I look for in a compression test? Is there a certain way I should do it to get the right readings?
     
  11. swank60

    swank60

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    PinHead - also, if this makes a dif: all of my plugs are fouled equally. They all go sooty black. if a valve was burned, wouldn't it only effect one plug?
     
  12. 60wag

    60wag SILVER Star

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    If youi were at high altitude, I'd suggest checking the HAC system but since you're not, that's not it. So you cleaned up the plugs and they turned black with the new carb? Its possible that the black plugs and soot are from oil being burned. Does it lose much oil? I think its worth taking it to a shop that has a tailpipe sniffer. That would confirm that the idle mixture is correct or not and whether you really still have a rich running condition. Is the fuel level in the carb close to the middle of the window?

    Setting the timing is pretty easy. Plug both of the advance hoses. Loosen the dizzy clamp bolt and twist the dizzy while watching the flywheel with a timing light. You'll see either the line or the hole as you move it. Set it to the hole (BB) and tighten the bolt.
     
  13. IDave

    IDave

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    Your altitude there is less than 1000 feet, so I agree, it isn't an issue.

    You may very well have overly retarded timing to account for your carbon deposits. I would concentrate on that, next.
     
  14. swank60

    swank60

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    iDave - that's what I'm thinking. It doens't help that I'm completly confused about the timing. Check this out:

    I've been down fooling with it, and on the timing, there are two painted marks that someone has put on there - I can't even see any sort of marks, other than the grooves that show...well, whatever they show, they aren't marked with anything.

    The painted marks are as such: there's what appears to be a circle, then, below it, there is a line. I didn't notice the cirlce until yesterday when I had the timing light on and was testing to make sure the vac advance was working right (it was) - as I pulled vac on the diaphhram, the small circle came into view.

    Thing is, I really don't know what I'm looking at. The last vehicle I ever had to adjust the timing on was my TR6, and it's so simple I could do it. Everything was marked there on the harmonic balancer in plain old English. This flywheel thing is something brand new to me.

    On the circle/line markings: they are pretty far apart - 1.5 - 2" maybe? when the mechanic I took it to looked it over, he never confirmed the timing for me - all he said was that, from his estimation, you had to set the timing from underneath the truck. (He didn't charge me anything, and did a lot of work, though it really didn't get me anywhere - but it was a free check up, and he set me up with a new set of plugs - free too!)

    Anyway, how do check the timing? Is it different on every truck depending on the mechanic? Are the painted marks from the factory? that just doens't add up. The factory, Haynes and Chilton manuals were of no help, either. Sure, sure, set it at 7 degrees BTDC...fine. How do I know it's at 7 degrees? Where in the hell is TDC?
     
  15. swank60

    swank60

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    I wonder if I can stay on track and get everything into one post?

    To clarify, the other markings on the flywheel are near the painted marks - they are little grooves that mark off by the mm (it looks like) - sort of what you'd find on a ruler. they are machined in and look factory, precise, etc.

    I feel like I'm doing this blind. If it wasn't for the forums, I'd've yanked out all of my hair (and I mean ALL of it.)
     
  16. IDave

    IDave

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    As the owner of an F engine, I can't say for sure, but I think your 2f is the same. The factory marks on the flywheel should be a line for top dead center, and a circle or BB for 7 degrees before top dead center. There should be a pointer on the window that you look through to see the timing marks on the flywheel, which is at the middle of the window. Proper timing is to have the BB right behind the pointer, and should be set with the vacuum lines removed and plugged.

    IF someone with a 2F has corrections to make, fire away!
     
  17. Pin_Head

    Pin_Head

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    I'm not convinced that there is anything significant wrong with it. The sooty plugs could just be your driving habbits (lots of short trips) or the wrong heat range. Oily and fouled is a different issue that would probably indicate low compression.

    Take off the clutch inspection cover and turn the flywheel until you find the timing marks. It is a line at TDC and a BB at 7 degrees BTDC as mentioned. It may help to clean them off. Timing is a 1 bannana job that should only take 5 minutes if you know what to look for.

    I would pay the $40 and find out. You have spent more time that that is worth worrying about it.
     
  18. swank60

    swank60

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    I am going to kick the crap out of myself if this is it. Not that it would surprise me. It's par for the course that I'd find a timing problem by way of the carb, emissions stuff, etc.

    I really, really appreciate all of the input and help!
     
  19. swank60

    swank60

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    Boy, what a difference knowing what I was looking at. Cleared the problem right up.

    Seriously. Thanks for the tips on the flywheel thing. I never would have figured that out...

    At least now I have a rebuilt carb, new wires, plugs, air cleaner, dist cap, rotor, clean air inject system, adjusted valves, and way more knowledge about the truck than I did when i started out.

    Now, on to the smog test!
     
  20. IDave

    IDave

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    So was the timing off? Retarded?