Starter issues 1977 fj40

flx

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The internal resistor coil just eliminates the need for the external resistor. Voltages are reduced in both cases to allow the points to last longer.
Had missed your message sorry.
That would answer some of my questions but then why Toyota felt it was necessary to have the external resisted one for some market some years? The other ones didn't need the help to start back then?
 

pb4ugo

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Idk, why Toyota does what it does. My guess it depends on the market the vehicle goes to and the common technology of that country. During the 50's and 60's and earlier most car manufacturers used some sort of resistor. As technology advances improvements in electronics does too. TVs used to have tubes in them b4 printed circuits and resistors.
 
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ToyotaMatt

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My model-idea for upgrading the electricals of a 40 was the FJ7* (carbed 3F).
They are equipped with:
- Dizzy: 19100-61180 "anti over-run"
- Coil: 90919-02167 with external resistor "backpack"
- Starter: 28100-60070 (yes the same GR starter we are talking here without a the pin "to ignition coil")

Looking at the 3F FSM they seem to not care and connect all of that together, as I had originally planned to do:
View attachment 3004193
View attachment 3004194

So my original plan to simply wire the ST signal from the starter to the coil and be done with it....


Looking further in the chassis FJ70 FSM and the electric diagram I found this:
View attachment 3004195

So here is the answer, they have a ST1 and ST2 signals from the key switch to keep both separated... Return to case 0 for a FJ40...



:cool:

3F 7.jpeg
 
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I guess to simplify things… I can find the wire that sends + to the ignition system and the + spring loaded switch that energizes the starter motor for cranking only. Almost sure my 40 has an internal resister coil. So, what’s the best way for me to go and not have a high school science experiment of wires under my hood lol. I like simplicity. 👌🏼
 

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i want to re-visit the idea and concept , that you simply do not need the 3rd small wire from starter to coil with a update to a gear reduction starter platform .......


- the old LOAFS of BREAD size single reduction units pre - 79 rotated less RPM's , this is a fact

so .........


- faster RPM cranking with gear reduction unit = quicker faster We are a GO for MAIN ENGINE IGNITION ...............


- in other words :


- HOUSTON , The TEq Has Landed !





60daa289-b7f7-4a6e-8123-8c63264eb298_1.7bdb666150f3e89e36b0392080301244.jpeg
 
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Steamer

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The motor on the GR turns much higher rpm but with gear reduction, the output design speed is similar to a non-GR starter. However, the output torque on the GR is higher and it does it with less amperage. This higher torque may equated to higher engine starting rpm when considering varying loads on the starter such as cold temps, thicker oil or a weak battery. The GR just makes good sense. I gave away my good working old style starter and upgraded to a GR.
 

Steamer

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I guess to simplify things… I can find the wire that sends + to the ignition system and the + spring loaded switch that energizes the starter motor for cranking only. Almost sure my 40 has an internal resister coil. So, what’s the best way for me to go and not have a high school science experiment of wires under my hood lol. I like simplicity. 👌🏼
This is a little confusing. More pics would help. Pics of the ignition setup (coil distributor ect), a better pic of the terminals and connections on that after market relay, and maybe a straight on shot of the end of the starter. From your original pic (post # 1) it appears you starter has the auxiliary contact for a resistor bypass but it is not connected. (white wire with your red arrow) Perhaps the white wire was abandoned if the internal contact failed and the relay was added to replace it. a better pic of where the added relay wires go would also help.

Also, is that a disconnected wire? (circled) Did it pull out of the connector the arrow is pointing at?

Loose Wire.jpg
 

ToyotaMatt

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The motor on the GR turns much higher rpm but with gear reduction, the output design speed is similar to a non-GR starter. However, the output torque on the GR is higher and it does it with less amperage. This higher torque may equated to higher engine starting rpm when considering varying loads on the starter such as cold temps, thicker oil or a weak battery. The GR just makes good sense. I gave away my good working old style starter and upgraded to a GR.


i used a hand held multi meter in the tach. mode before a update from a oem Toyota old tired yes LOAF of bread OEM original single reduction unit , but still cranked out

to start fj40 then installed gear reduction i had over a 300+ RPM increase , that could of been a tired loaf of bread but NO WAY JOSE all of it was ?

that's proof enough for me .........
 

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This is a little confusing. More pics would help. Pics of the ignition setup (coil distributor ect), a better pic of the terminals and connections on that after market relay, and maybe a straight on shot of the end of the starter. From your original pic (post # 1) it appears you starter has the auxiliary contact for a resistor bypass but it is not connected. (white wire with your red arrow) Perhaps the white wire was abandoned if the internal contact failed and the relay was added to replace it. a better pic of where the added relay wires go would also help.

Also, is that a disconnected wire? (circled) Did it pull out of the connector the arrow is pointing at?

View attachment 3005860


the wire disconnected is Yellow w / black tracer stripe

= OIL PREASSURE SENDER TO DASH OIL CLUSTER GUAGE ...........................


if it's severed ?

he will show a flat line oil gauge orange needle in the rest position L location ...........


- also ENGINE WIRE #4 applies to a 1977 FJ40 2F as well .





1C43ED87-50F5-4A9A-A6F9-358EC05A1274.jpeg
DSCN8986.JPG
DSCN8987.JPG
DSCN8994.JPG
oilsenderwire2.jpg
.jpg
87C8C396-A98A-43E3-8044-0E6A85649914.jpeg
1597258499390.png
 
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This is a little confusing. More pics would help. Pics of the ignition setup (coil distributor ect), a better pic of the terminals and connections on that after market relay, and maybe a straight on shot of the end of the starter. From your original pic (post # 1) it appears you starter has the auxiliary contact for a resistor bypass but it is not connected. (white wire with your red arrow) Perhaps the white wire was abandoned if the internal contact failed and the relay was added to replace it. a better pic of where the added relay wires go would also help.

Also, is that a disconnected wire? (circled) Did it pull out of the connector the arrow is pointing at?

View attachment 3005860
The red goes on to the oil pressure sending unit I believe. It’s a frame off restoration, it’s getting a new starter. I’m just not sure which way to go. I’m very much uneducated on starters, and ignition systems. I sincerely appreciate everyone’s help here. I want the truck back as stock as I can get it. But I do like modern technology if it’ll make it more dependable.
 

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the wire disconnected is Yellow w / black tracer stripe

= OIL PREASSURE SENDER TO DASH OIL CLUSTER GUAGE ...........................
Ah! I see that now. It looked like a frayed unconnected wire.
i used a hand held multi meter in the tach. mode before a update
You measured the rpm difference. Very good! Can't argue those results. I measured the difference in voltage drop while cranking and the GR dropped less. Didn't write it down and can't remember how much, just that it was better.
 

Steamer

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I’m very much uneducated on starters, and ignition systems.
Looking at a diagram from a Trollhole post , your 1977 had an external resistor and a bypass setup. The starter in the diagram shows the extra contact/terminal for that bypass. It appears in your first pic (post #1) that you do have the starter with that extra contact/terminal. I’ve heard some people here say they have done away with the bypass and had no problems starting. The bypass elimination often occurs when you wind up with a starter that doesn’t have the extra contact/terminal like when you exchange a bad starter for a rebuilt one at the parts store.

Bypass.jpg
 

Steamer

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Keep in mind, the only reason resistors were introduced into ignition systems, was so that they could be bypassed when cranking to make up for the voltage drop.

A coil that gets paired with a resistor is designed/wound to run on the lower voltage incurred during cranking. After startup and running, the normal higher voltage would be too much for that coil, so the bypass needs to drop out and voltage is routed back through the resistor and then to the coil.

An internally resisted coil doesn’t have a resistor inside, it just has more windings and is designed to run on normal running voltage. This coil will produce less spark energy from the voltage drop when cranking and there’s no way to by-pass some of the windings to make up for it. However, with more modern ignition systems there’s less need to make up for it.

With the GR starter you won’t have the resistor bypass unless you add a relay. Do you need it? Probably not. Maybe under certain circumstances like a really cold morning and a weak battery, a bypass just might make a difference whether it fires up or not. The benefits of the GR starter are significant enough to me that I’d do the GR and if I had any problems cranking you could always add a relay. Or just replace the ignition system with a DUI and keep the wiring really simple.
 
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come on folks ?



there is a safe and simple way to BYPASS / NOT having a 3rd wire and indeed using the gear reduction starter and still have a signal to the coil via the starter and the 3rd wire

i have seen it done before ?



- as i recall : 🤔

- you simply ADD the small 3rd wire to the USA COIL ONLY ,. VIA adding it to or tapping into the :


- i wan't opinions here so here i go :

- you
mooch B+ KEY Start signal from Terminal 50 where black wire w./ white stipe connects then go to coil


- why ?

- because the solenoid plunger is ON b+ same amount of time the key switch signal is too via the " to ignition coil usa only " .........

-
or

- we simply DO NOT NEED this 3rd wire any more to boost B+ power to the coil temporarily during cranking because the updated upgrade gear reduction starter rotates more RPM's the the old SKOOL LOAFS of BREAD size single reduction watermelon starters did ?


- bring on the tech opinions please ,,,,,,,,


- my final thoughts are : You simply do NOT need a 3rd wire signal boost to coil because of all the mechanical advantages of the gear reduction unit offers and has ?


:popcorn:

-



View attachment 3004060






This has all been hashed out before. Use the search. Do it like this:

 

ToyotaMatt

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This has all been hashed out before. Use the search. Do it like this:



thanks fore the link ,


can you add any input here in any way since you know more then us ?


thanks




denso6666 - Copy.jpg
 

flx

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Keep in mind, the only reason resistors were introduced into ignition systems, was so that they could be bypassed when cranking to make up for the voltage drop.

A coil that gets paired with a resistor is designed/wound to run on the lower voltage incurred during cranking. After startup and running, the normal higher voltage would be too much for that coil, so the bypass needs to drop out and voltage is routed back through the resistor and then to the coil.

An internally resisted coil doesn’t have a resistor inside, it just has more windings and is designed to run on normal running voltage. This coil will produce less spark energy from the voltage drop when cranking and there’s no way to by-pass some of the windings to make up for it. However, with more modern ignition systems there’s less need to make up for it.

With the GR starter you won’t have the resistor bypass unless you add a relay. Do you need it? Probably not. Maybe under certain circumstances like a really cold morning and a weak battery, a bypass just might make a difference whether it fires up or not. The benefits of the GR starter are significant enough to me that I’d do the GR and if I had any problems cranking you could always add a relay. Or just replace the ignition system with a DUI and keep the wiring really simple.
With all that said, Mr. T delivered FJ40s for many many years in many countries, including cold ones, with a direct drive starter and an internally resisted coil, and people lived with that.

Now,
going from direct drive starter to GR starter is an upgrade to the starting system.
going from an internally resisted coil to an externally resisted coil with resistor bypass is an upgrade to the starting system.

If your truck has neither of those, doing only one of those 2 possible upgrades would be a plus.
If you have one of those features (probably the externally resisted coil), trading a downgrade for an upgrade may be not worth it / a good idea.

And as mentioned by multiple persons now, adding a relay is the solution for benefiting from both upgrades. But that's a bit more aftermarket wiring to do correctly if you are not electrically inclined (and we all hate badly hacked wiring by PO, so let's try to not be that person).
And if you are like me you may think a modern plastic relay looks horrible under the hood of your FJ40 and you may want to find a relay that at least looks period correct xD
 
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thanks fore the link ,


can you add any input here in any way since you know more then us ?


thanks




I wrote the linked post in 2005 after making all the potential mistakes that have been discussed in this thread, so I suppose you could say I've contributed my input. :)

I only wish that I had explained more clearly that I linked the existing harness wires to bring the switched +12v from the starter to the relay (and coil). My relay is mounted next to the coil for a clean(ish) install.

Here's that, 12 years later:

IMG_20220512_083654~2.jpg
 

ToyotaMatt

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I wrote the linked post in 2005 after making all the potential mistakes that have been discussed in this thread, so I suppose you could say I've contributed my input. :)

I only wish that I had explained more clearly that I linked the existing harness wires to bring the switched +12v from the starter to the relay (and coil). My relay is mounted next to the coil for a clean(ish) install.

Here's that, 12 years later:

View attachment 3006799


thanks for your valued input here

i knew you were the ORACLE on the topic !

you explained it in a way i can finally understand !

thanks so much

matt :)
 

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