Starter issues 1977 fj40 (1 Viewer)

ToyotaMatt

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ToyotaMatt

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Hey Matt, does yours just have 3 wires to it ? That I would use. Big gauge hot +, big gauge - and the wire from the ignition to send the signal to start it.


the gear reduction starter was not introduced till 5/79 , this is why toyota can't look one up for a A 1962-4/79 fj40 F , F1.5 2F 3FE

i personally have installed a reduction oem unit on a 1964 Siamese F w / a Colum shift J-30 Trans and vacuum t-case all original too !



there is ONE fundamental difference :

only 2 wires on the reduction , the B= Battery Cable , and the BLACL wire . / with the white tracer stripe from elec key switch to the starter to activate the solonoid


your old 3rd wire , is a small gauge black w /red tracer , that goes to your COIL and or Igniter set up

this here lies the tiny issue i think you are already aware of , by the wording of your question above ?


am i right about this key point or ?


🤔



maybe @4Cruisers will chime in here ?

he is in my professional and personal opinion the Authority and final word on the key point topic ...........

his unique gift to the MUD community is the specializing in the OEM NipponDenso various Ignitions Systems , :popcorn:




he will know this better then my vague recollection of only partial facts ,. and i try never to speculate , it only causes undo stress and such ...........




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the gear reduction starter was not introduced till 5/79 , this is why toyota can't look one up for a A 1962-4/79 fj40 F , F1.5 2F 3FE

i personally have installed a reduction oem unit on a 1964 Siamese F w / a Colum shift J-30 Trans and vacuum t-case all original too !



there is ONE fundamental difference :

only 2 wires on the reduction , the B= Battery Cable , and the BLACL wire . / with the white tracer stripe from elec key switch to the starter to activate the solonoid


your old 3rd wire , is a small gauge black w /red tracer , that goes to your COIL and or Igniter set up

this here lies the tiny issue i think you are already aware of , by the wording of your question above ?


am i right about this key point or ?


🤔



maybe @4Cruisers will chime in here ?

he is in my professional and personal opinion the Authority and final word on the key point topic ...........

his unique gift to the MUD community is the specializing in the OEM NipponDenso various Ignitions Systems , :popcorn:




he will know this better then my vague recollection of only partial facts ,. and i try never to speculate , it only causes undo stress and such ...........




I’d like to have something very reliable. Starter without all he extra wires and relays. , and an ignition system that’s easy too.
 

ToyotaMatt

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Does anyone know if my 77 FJ40 should have an aftermarket starter relay !? Please excuse my ignorance, I’m not an auto electrician or mechanic by any means. It seems the hot + wire from the ignition should go to the starter circuit on the starter solenoid … is this a work-around when/if the starter solenoid stopped !? Factory ignition seems to still be in place.

View attachment 3003065


Mean while waiting for @4Cruisers to chime in

We can start and have a productive and indeed enlightening discussion from all points of view on my below 1962-4/79. Starter 3 wire system and the 💯 % period correct usa spec. EWD diagram and combo Parts nomenclature also

I swear by this paticular page in the GREY 1st Gen. 2F engine FSM ,

Publication # 98126


So let’s Discuss shall we :

- I’ll simply start by asking anyone willing to share here ,how to bypass and or delete or hook up differently the key point 3rd wire that goes :

“ TO Ignition Coil ( only for USA ) in the below starting system circuits FSM ewd combo diagram “. ….

Because ?

We all need to know ! :D



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Steamer

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One possibility is the relay was for a resistor bypass. Some starters had the auxiliary contact for the resistor bypass, but replacement starters often do not have it. When this happens, the bypass will often get done away with unless a relay is added to make the bypass operational.
 

Steamer

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Good pic Matt. That's showing the auxiliary contact built in. The starter that was on my rig, when I got it, did not have that extra contact. I added a relay to make the resistor bypass operational.
But now it's a GR starter with no auxiliary contact and no resistor with the DUI.
 
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Mean while waiting for @4Cruisers to chime in

We can start and have a productive and indeed enlightening discussion from all points of view on my below 1962-4/79. Starter 3 wire system and the 💯 % period correct usa spec. EWD diagram and combo Parts nomenclature also

I swear by this paticular page in the GREY 1st Gen. 2F engine FSM ,

Publication # 98126


So let’s Discuss shall we :

- I’ll simply start by asking anyone willing to share here ,how to bypass and or delete or hook up differently the key point 3rd wire that goes :

“ TO Ignition Coil ( only for USA ) in the below starting system circuits FSM ewd combo diagram “. ….

Because ?

We all need to know ! :D



View attachment 3003830
I can deal with this. Simple. Not over engineering 👏🏼
 
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Good pic Matt. That's showing the auxiliary contact built in. The starter that was on my rig, when I got it, did not have that extra contact. I added a relay to make the resistor bypass operational.
But now it's a GR starter with no auxiliary contact and no resistor with the DUI.
I may need the same system you have ! Starter/ ignition
 

ToyotaMatt

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One possibility is the relay was for a resistor bypass. Some starters had the auxiliary contact for the resistor bypass, but replacement starters often do not have it. When this happens, the bypass will often get done away with unless a relay is added to make the bypass operational.



awesome input !

this is EXACTLY the tech @jetyancey needs to have and review too ,

- i am very :meh: on this key point small gauge black wire w/ red tracer stripe .......


....so : CLASS IS IN Session for ToyotaMatt for sure here ... 🤔



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Steamer

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I may need the same system you have ! Starter/ ignition
The main reason I went with the GR starter is that it draws less amps and my thinking is, with a weak battery on the trail, a GR starter could just make the difference between cranking over or not. Lighter and smaller is just a bonus.

As for ignition, there are several choices and I’m not qualified to say what’s best. I had several issues with several Pertronix modules and finally chose the DUI because it was a brand-new setup and parts are readily available. Having the coil, and ignitor all in one unit was tidy wiring bonus
 

Steamer

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Matt. The starter that came on mine and the spare that came also, only had the battery lug and the one spade terminal. They didn’t have that extra terminal in your pic marked “To Ignition Coil USA” which I assume is for the resistor bypass. The “C terminal” in your pic is confusing. I don’t believe that’s a terminal that intended for connecting a wire to, other than the big heavy field coil wire. However I am speculating
Starter Terminals.jpg
 

ToyotaMatt

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Matt. The starter that came on mine and the spare that came also, only had the battery lug and the one spade terminal. They didn’t have that extra terminal in your pic marked “To Ignition Coil USA” which I assume is for the resistor bypass. The “C terminal” in your pic is confusing. I don’t believe that’s a terminal that intended for connecting a wire to, other than the big heavy field coil wire. However I am speculatingView attachment 3003921



NOTHING gets connected to the C terminal , that';s a diagnostic reference point only ...........

to verify if b+ is traveling to the solenoid via the starter motor and vise versa when key in START POSITION ONLY , or engine cranking prior to ignition ......


make sence ?
 

ToyotaMatt

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come on folks ?



there is a safe and simple way to BYPASS / NOT having a 3rd wire and indeed using the gear reduction starter and still have a signal to the coil via the starter and the 3rd wire

i have seen it done before ?



- as i recall : 🤔

- you simply ADD the small 3rd wire to the USA COIL ONLY ,. VIA adding it to or tapping into the :


- i wan't opinions here so here i go :

- you
mooch B+ KEY Start signal from Terminal 50 where black wire w./ white stipe connects then go to coil


- why ?

- because the solenoid plunger is ON b+ same amount of time the key switch signal is too via the " to ignition coil usa only " .........

-
or

- we simply DO NOT NEED this 3rd wire any more to boost B+ power to the coil temporarily during cranking because the updated upgrade gear reduction starter rotates more RPM's the the old SKOOL LOAFS of BREAD size single reduction watermelon starters did ?


- bring on the tech opinions please ,,,,,,,,


- my final thoughts are : You simply do NOT need a 3rd wire signal boost to coil because of all the mechanical advantages of the gear reduction unit offers and has ?


:popcorn:

-

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Steamer

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The problem with using the #50 terminal for the resistor bypass is,, yes it would bypass the resistor while cranking but after that, you would have resisted voltage back feeding the starter solenoid and also whenever the key is in the “Run” position. It would be the lower resisted voltage back feeding and it may or may not hold in or pull in the solenoid but either way, not a good idea.

The only way I see to have a functioning resistor bypass on a starter without the extra terminal (built in extra contact) is by using an add on relay.
 

flx

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you would have resisted voltage back feeding the starter solenoid and also whenever the key is in the “Run” position. It would be the lower resisted voltage back feeding and it may or may not hold in or pull in the solenoid but either way, not a good idea.

I was thinking about doing the same wiring Matt mentioned to add a coil with external resistor to my FJ40 that wasn't equipped with one but had oversaw this part, very good comment!


I'm still very unsure on the relation between distributor and coil and if dizzy made for a coil with external resistor is different than one made for a coil with internal resistor and if swappable.
 

ToyotaMatt

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The problem with using the #50 terminal for the resistor bypass is,, yes it would bypass the resistor while cranking but after that, you would have resisted voltage back feeding the starter solenoid and also whenever the key is in the “Run” position. It would be the lower resisted voltage back feeding and it may or may not hold in or pull in the solenoid but either way, not a good idea.

The only way I see to have a functioning resistor bypass on a starter without the extra terminal (built in extra contact) is by using an add on relay.
I was thinking about doing the same wiring Matt mentioned to add a coil with external resistor to my FJ40 that wasn't equipped with one but had oversaw this part, very good comment!


I'm still very unsure on the relation between distributor and coil and if dizzy made for a coil with external resistor is different than one made for a coil with internal resistor and if swappable.


ok now i agree , i did not know that fact back feeding , good call

this is exactly why a made the big point this needs to be a group viewpoints discussion .......

ok


then :


what about my concrete theory that the gear reduction many times over increased RPM

and that's a fact here , the gear reduction rotates a F 2F or 3FE many many times faster RPM's

this would translate in theory , to NOT even needing this silly outdated 3rd wire , ?

in fact , even with a simple oem coil w/ the external ball;ast resister like i tech example below :


this and a gear reduction require NO 3rd wire on my 1983 FJ43L-KC , i have a brand new MED cap anti over rev dizzy and this exact coil and the gear reduction unit too


i never have had a ignition issue or a starting issue period


what say the you folks on my above theory and stated facts too ?


this is all i know at this point on this topic .......






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flx

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My model-idea for upgrading the electricals of a 40 was the FJ7* (carbed 3F).
They are equipped with:
- Dizzy: 19100-61180 "anti over-run"
- Coil: 90919-02167 with external resistor "backpack"
- Starter: 28100-60070 (yes the same GR starter we are talking here without a the pin "to ignition coil")

Looking at the 3F FSM they seem to not care and connect all of that together, as I had originally planned to do:
1652103355970.png

1652103368624.png


So my original plan to simply wire the ST signal from the starter to the coil and be done with it....


Looking further in the chassis FJ70 FSM and the electric diagram I found this:
1652103513443.png


So here is the answer, they have a ST1 and ST2 signals from the key switch to keep both separated... Return to case 0 for a FJ40...
 

flx

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Now I'm still not sure why depending of the year and markets some FJ40 came with an external resisted coil and some with an internal resisted one?

Is-there a difference in output between an externally resisted coil without the use of ST signal and simply an internally resisted coil?
Is dizzy originally coupled with an external resistor coil work with an internally resisted one without burning the points or something like that?


Don't want to high jack too much the original thread that was about a starter... But yes if an internally resisted coil could work ok for all setup this would simplify the use of 28100-60070 for all cases.
 

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