Shop-Rebuilt Knuckles; No Moly in Plug Hole (2 Viewers)

[I Lean]

I wouldn't stress about the red grease being in there. I would add a lot of moly grease to fill the cavity though, at minimum. (what I mean is, I wouldn't bother cleaning the red grease out first--it will mix just fine with the added moly, or it won't--but either way it will lube what needs lubing)

I'd like to hear what @cruiseroutfit does in his shop. I have a suspicion that he will say something along the lines of "follow the FSM".

 

[cme4lyt]

I just talked to the mechanic again about the FSM directions to grease knuckles 3/4 full. He said that's "old information" and that it does more harm than good. Talked about heat buildup and drag while spinning. I told him I'd still like them filled, so going to do that in a few days.

What was interesting though is that he named various Toyota specialty shops, including Valley Hybrids, which is somewhat local to me and has a good rep here on MUD, and said that all of them do the same as his shop. Is this true? Most of what I've read and seen says the opposite.

I would bet my mortgage that Georg at Valley Hybrids does it the correct way, per the FSM.

 

[orangefj45]

I'm going to politely stay out of this as much as possible.

What I can tell you is that I've seen lots of ways people rebuild birfs and knuckles. This holds true for shops and individuals. As long as the proper grease is used, you won't have any problems. I've done knuckles the same way for the last 25 years and have NEVER had an issue.

Maybe this questions should be asked: "When is the last time ANYBODY on here saw a knuckle of birf failure because the knuckles weren't 3/4 full of grease?"

I do think that the ziptie-dipstick is about one of the silliest things I've ever heard. We're dealing with thick grease here, not oil. The viscocity allows for air pockets and inclusions so there's NO WAY to measure the "level".
LMAO

Usually worn out birfs are due to high milage ( full time applications ) or the fact that the vehicle owner let the knuckles leak too long, allowing the gear oil to wash all the grease out. But even then, they typically have 150-200k miles on them .......

Carry on ......

Georg

 

[clx16]

As a non-mechanic consumer...if I take my vehicle in to have the AC fixed i expect the mechanic to follow what was prescribed by the factory unless we agree otherwise. I do not expect to find a window unit installed and told that there is a common misconception that is being avoided here.

In college I didn't have a place or time to fix a vehicle. Mechanic told me he could use rtv now or we wait for the gasket to arrive the next day. He didn't just do it and then tell me the factory had it wrong all along.

 

[BILT4ME]

I'm going to politely stay out of this as much as possible.

What I can tell you is that I've seen lots of ways people rebuild birfs and knuckles. This holds true for shops and individuals. As long as the proper grease is used, you won't have any problems. I've done knuckles the same way for the last 25 years and have NEVER had an issue.

Maybe this questions should be asked: "When is the last time ANYBODY on here saw a knuckle of birf failure because the knuckles weren't 3/4 full of grease?"

I do think that the ziptie-dipstick is about one of the silliest things I've ever heard. We're dealing with thick grease here, not oil. The viscocity allows for air pockets and inclusions so there's NO WAY to measure the "level".
LMAO

Usually worn out birfs are due to high milage ( full time applications ) or the fact that the vehicle owner let the knuckles leak too long, allowing the gear oil to wash all the grease out. But even then, they typically have 150-200k miles on them .......

Carry on ......

Georg

Georg:
Thanks for your reply.

I believe you are correct about the ziptie-dipstick. It doesn't work because it gets dirty as you insert it to check level and it's in a housing with a birf in the way.

I respect your non-answer for your business. In respect to a birf failing, no, that is probably insignificant. However, a spindle bushing howling, galling, or failing due to lack of lubrication is a much more common occurrence. I believe that is really paramount to the discussion here. If all the shop did was pack the interior of the birf and do not properly lube the spindle bushing and birf shaft, then yes, quite possible there is a distinct issue with the bushing failing.

On one hand, I want to say in all caps: "Follow the FSM!" as I then turn around and point out that the FSM also states 35 LB-IN for wheel bearing torque that is obviously incorrect.

I still believe that the birfield needs to be bathed in grease per the FSM, or much shorter life will occur. Look at any other make as well and they are either sealed, directly greasable, or bathed in lube. You don't just pack some in the middle and allow it to be thrown from it's housing and not be replaced. There will be some minor residual lubrication retained, but it will not be much.

The shop could sign a waiver that if the birfield or the bushing fail within the next 80K miles, all materials and labor to replace it will be completed as no-charge warranty work. That should cover it and it is not unreasonable. Even stipulate that the regular maintenance must be performed at their facility so they can be sure that "proper" maintenance was actually performed. If this owner believes in his statement that much, he should have no problem agreeing to such a written statement.

 

[orangefj45]

Georg:


I respect your non-answer for your business. In respect to a birf failing, no, that is probably insignificant. However, a spindle bushing howling, galling, or failing due to lack of lubrication is a much more common occurrence. I believe that is really paramount to the discussion here. If all the shop did was pack the interior of the birf and do not properly lube the spindle bushing and birf shaft, then yes, quite possible there is a distinct issue with the bushing failing.

On one hand, I want to say in all caps: "Follow the FSM!" as I then turn around and point out that the FSM also states 35 LB-IN for wheel bearing torque that is obviously incorrect.

very valid point regarding the spindle bushing/bearing.

However, at this point we do not know if that's the culprit ( source of the noise ) or if it's been greased properly.

 

[smritte]

I want to chime in here from a tech/manufacture point of view. What i want to comment on is old FSM vs modern thinking/techniques. First off, I have never worked for Toyota. My experience was with GM. I now teach automotive for a few manufactures as well as new people getting into the industry.

I have watched service manual procedures change over the years. Most tech's don't update their knowledge and stay with the "I've been doing this for........years and I have never had a problem". That works as long as you stay working with older vehicles, not new.
Now we have the next generation who was trained differently with "updated" modern techniques. They not only say something similar as the "old guys" but, they will normally argue that their way is better.

So, who is correct?

Now i'm going to throw in an observation. I have seen manufactures change procedures for two reasons. First is, the old one was "ok" but they found that over time it may not be the best. Second, the manufacture is a cheap a$$ and they save money by "using less grease", thinner wire...... The second manufacture doesn't really care if it causes things to wear out quicker, as long as it gets out of warranty and lasts a short time after.

Guess which of the two I see all the time? Now you have tech's trained with two different schools of thought using two different FSM procedures. Both can say, lets look it up.

At work I love playing devils advocate. I can argue both sides of almost anything automotive and prove myself by looking it up. The problem is, not all the FSM techniques/procedures are..."correct" is not the word, "proper?" and their data can be different from other FSM's on the same parts.

The biggest issue with tech's is, you dont experiment. You fix things all day. If you don't know something you (hopefully) look it up. Things have a life span. If you do a repair to the best of your ability and it wears out, it is past its life span. You don't experiment with different things (fluids, greases..) or techniques other than proper OEM. If you do you open your self up for problems.
The next biggest issue with tech's is, most are only as good as their training. You will do things the way you were trained. The only exception is if you have an automotive hobby. Now you read forums, try different things, see what works and doesn't work.
This is what we see here. We experiment. On this "debate", has anyone run a birf low on grease for an extended time and analyzed a failure? For the ones who ran it full of grease, have you seen issues?

Bottom line here is, I don't believe anyone here is technically wrong. Hell, DOT 3 brake fluid has a 2 year life span and OEM's want you to change it at 4-5. Why? because they factor in a percentage of acid into their lifespans of the rubber seals. FSM says 4-5 years and brake fluid manufacture says 2 years. Which of those two are correct?

Sigh, another 2 page long winded post....sorry
Jumping off soap box.

 

[Kernal]

"I don't believe anyone here is technically wrong".

I'm gonna take the heat and state I disagree with that statement as it
applies to packing the steering knuckle cavity with grease to 2/3-3/4 full.

It makes no sense to leave out the grease in this particular design, proven to work as designed for 60+ years. And then all of sudden one mechanic/tech decides he knows better than 10's of thousands of mechanics all over the world??? Nope.

It's just one guy who decided it wasn't necessary and some sheeple followed him over the cliff.

I've driven well over 700,000 miles in various solid axle Land Cruisers over the past 30+ years and every one of them had the steering knuckles correctly packed with grease. No issues. Just today drove (way over the speed limit) for hours (highway) in 90+ degree weather, no issues.

Would I do that with the OP's vehicle with empty knuckles? No way.

Someone needs to show us an engineering study proving there's a better way to do it than what the FSM (and common experience) has shown
to be successful.

 

[ToothDr]

There are lots of great cruiser shops out there that will do a job correctly and by that I mean follow manufacturer recommendations. Obviously there are may ways to do things. This thread reminds me of the windshield thread about shops not needing to follow the FSM because they‘ve done hundreds of these trucks and know what they are doing. Then later the windshield leaks. Question. How many of you would drive that truck cross country with the pics he provided?? Find a new mechanic.

 

[thatcabledude]

How many of you would drive that truck cross country with the pics he provided??

I would.















After I converted it to part time.

 

[mudgudgeon]

I just talked to the mechanic again about the FSM directions to grease knuckles 3/4 full. He said that's "old information" and that it does more harm than good. Talked about heat buildup and drag while spinning. I told him I'd still like them filled, so going to do that in a few days.

May be "old information", but is there new information published that supersedes it with new instructions?

Grease in the knuckle does a few things.
It helps keep the birfs filled with grease,
it keeps the knuckle ball and wiper seals greased to stop rusting,
It helps keep water out of the knuckle (helps, but is not a seal)
It helps keep spindle bushing greased

I don't think it realistically keeps the top trunion bearing lubed, and from what I've seen, the top ones will wear more than bottom ones.


It used to be said not to completely fill a cavity between bearings in the hubs to prevent overheating through friction, but I believe that is more relevant to old school clay based greases that can stiffen and solidify over time

Maybe this questions should be asked: "When is the last time ANYBODY on here saw a knuckle of birf failure because the knuckles weren't 3/4 full of grease?"

My current '93 fzj80 had 200k km (125k mikes) on it when I bought it.
Birfs where clicking quite a bit when I bought it so I replaced them shortly after buying the vehicle.

When I tore it down, the birfs where not original OEM, and they were barely filled with standard HTB type grease.
The knuckles were not packed at all, and the birfs were only lightly packed.

So, who wants to speculate what was responsible for clicking birfs with what I would assume to be substantially less than 60k miles on them.

Lack of grease?
No moly in the grease?
Or just shìt quality birfs? (Brand unknown)

I'll stick to packing knuckles 2/3 full. I think there's good reasons to do it, and no strong argument on why you wouldn't do it.


I agree with @BILT4ME in regard to following the FSM, except when there's proven record of FSM instructions not being best practice such as wheel bearing preload.

 

[dugsgms]

I don't know...In the pic I see grease on the birfs, maybe not the right kind and maybe not filled to specs but enough to not cause a failure in such a short time. Grease is pretty clingy so I doubt whatever they used to pack the birf has all flinged off and the moly vs. red and tacky might cause a issue long term but I doubt its gonna cause a short term failure.

I also have a hard time seeing how a birf issue would cause a noise only when turning left. Sounds to me like a rotor rubbing on a dust shield. If it was mine I would fill up the cavity to spec with moly grease, check wheel bearing adjustment and make sure the brake dust shield isn't bent and too close to the rotor.

 

[ToothDr]

My concern with this job is not just the under filled and wrong type of grease in the birfs but the responses back from the mechanic about the FSM being BS. how many other things did he take liberties on? Torque specs?? If he didn’t have them memorized only place too look these up is the FSM. Or at least that’s where I would look them up. Cruisers are unique beasts and sometimes the one size fits all mentality with some mechanics can cause you headaches.

 

[-Spike-]

It used to be said not to completely fill a cavity between bearings in the hubs to prevent overheating through friction, but I believe that is more relevant to old school clay based greases that can stiffen and solidify over time.

Not bagging on you, this was just the most recent quote about grease-related friction and I'm lazy. I don't believe the reason not to pack the hubs solid is friction related. This is a lubricant we're talking about, specifically engineered to eliminate as much friction as possible. Tools R Us explained the reasons you shouldn't pack the hub full to me once, he may have posted it somewhere, but I'm too lazy to find it, sorry. In any case, the suggestion that grease creates friction is laughable to me, but I'm not an expert. I do believe that there's a good reason not to fill the bell solid, probably the same reason you should leave an air space in the hub, around the spindle. Unfortunately I can't remember what it is. At the same time, there should be some grease in both of those areas, even though neither is a contact area. Probably has something to do with replenishing the oils that are squeezed out of the grease that's in direct contact with the bearings, balls, bushings, etc.

I don't know...In the pic I see grease on the birfs, maybe not the right kind and maybe not filled to specs but enough to not cause a failure in such a short time. Grease is pretty clingy so I doubt whatever they used to pack the birf has all flinged off and the moly vs. red and tacky might cause a issue long term but I doubt its gonna cause a short term failure.

Again, not picking on you, but I keep seeing this reasoning about 'it has grease, should be fine' and I don't agree- here's why. The high viscosity of multi-purpose grease is probably a good reason not to use it, as it won't migrate to where it needs to be. In this case, with the spindle bushing being the assumed problem, if the bushing wasn't greased or the grease has been pushed out/wiped off the bearing surface then no grease is migrating to it. I have read many times of people on this board who had noise coming from the spindle bushing, and having fixed the problem by simply adding moly grease to the knuckle. It's a very loose grease that will migrate- which is why the zip-tie dipstick method does in fact work, as the grease pools in the bottom of the knuckle. In my experience, anyway, and with the (cheap) moly grease I use.

 

[greentruck]

SNIP
I have read many times of people on this board who had noise coming from the spindle bushing, and having fixed the problem by simply adding moly grease to the knuckle. It's a very loose grease that will migrate- which is why the zip-tie dipstick method does in fact work, as the grease pools in the bottom of the knuckle.
SNIP

Exactly my experience, too. Adding grease when it gets low definitely resolves various noise problems. This is usually because when it gets below the line through the center there is nothing that can work it's way into the spindle bushing area. Filling past that point allows enough moly to get to the bushing to quiet it, assuming it's not been significasntly damaged by being low prior to the top up fill.

IMO the main reason you don't want the housing full is that it gets hot and cools. If it was full, this expansion under heat would tend to force the moly past the inner axle seals to contaminate the gear lube in the diff and outward to slobber all over the outer swivel ball.

 

[I Lean]

IMO the main reason you don't want the housing full is that it gets hot and cools. If it was full, this expansion under heat would tend to force the moly past the inner axle seals to contaminate the gear lube in the diff and outward to slobber all over the outer swivel ball.

Exactly. On my trailer, the hubs get completely full because I grease the bearings through a zerk that puts the grease past the inner bearing--so I pump it in until it comes through the outer bearing. The wheels always have grease flung all over them after I tow a significant distance. It's a trailer, so I don't really care--but the same effect on my car would be a bummer.

 

[ChaseTruck]

.... Tools R Us explained the reasons you shouldn't pack the hub full to me once, he may have posted it somewhere, but I'm too lazy to find it, sorry. ...

The way Tools R Us explained it to me is that as you drive, things get warm, everything expands a bit. If the bell is completely packed full, the grease is going somewhere. Been there, done that, inadvertently, though. I once put too much grease in the knuckles of the '93 through the fill port (it's black/dark down there, I've never been able to see how much grease there might have been), and figured it's better to have too much grease than not enough. Well, then. The grease came out through the wiper seals - no, not birf soup, but clean moly grease...

 

[Kernal]

Ditto above.

Everyone who's been on the forum for awhile also knows to bypass the axle breather assembly so grease won't get sucked into the gear oil. I think that was mentioned by the OP that the mechanic said that was one reason not to fill the knuckle cavity. But with the breather bypassed that's less likely to occur.

 

[bigredmachine]

I just talked to the mechanic again about the FSM directions to grease knuckles 3/4 full. He said that's "old information" and that it does more harm than good. Talked about heat buildup and drag while spinning. I told him I'd still like them filled, so going to do that in a few days.

did the mechanic also have a length of tubing and some cigarettes to blow smoke up your ass? as a former toyota tech i can tell you that the knuckles need to be filled with grease, any grease is better than none and i can say from experience that my knuckles have had whatever grease we had for the guns in the shop put in them with no issues.

i would not take it back to them, its one thing to make a mistake as they happen, but to say that toyota dosnt know what their trucks need is completely ridiculous. buy a grease gun, 3 tubes of black moly grease and pump about 1 to 1 1/2 tubes into each knuckle.

while i can respect not wanting to bad mouth the shop if your willing to say where you got the truck "serviced" it may save someone else the same headache. just because they have been doing it the same way for however long dosnt mean that they have been doing it the right way

 

[mudgudgeon]

i would not take it back to them, its one thing to make a mistake as they happen, but to say that toyota dosnt know what their trucks need is completely ridiculous. buy a grease gun, 3 tubes of black moly grease and pump about 1 to 1 1/2 tubes into each knuckle.

while i can respect not wanting to bad mouth the shop if your willing to say where you got the truck "serviced" it may save someone else the same headache. just because they have been doing it the same way for however long dosnt mean that they have been doing it the right way

I agree. I would not be going back.
Another thing that gets me is in an early post, the OP said what the he first took it back, the shop adjusted calipers to try to eliminate the noise.
I'm not a master mechanic, but for the life of me can't think of anything that is adjustable on the caliper. They are self adjusting no?

OP said the shop had the truck an extra week to try and diagnose the noise.
WTF! You sent out work that is not right, and then sat on it for a week, and still didn't fix it.