Saginaw Steering Not Centering (1 Viewer)

[RWBeringer4x4]

Center the box first , then pitman arm , then axle/drag link . Center the wheel after that and set the toe-in . If that box is running off-center that will contribute to the problem as the recirculating ball system does have a "center" to it , running it out of center in a straight will make it feel weird .
Sarge

I think you're absolutely right, Sarge. I dropped it back off at the shop yesterday. The mechanic swore up and down that the box was centered when installed. Hopefully I'll have it back today with an explanation of what happened...

The one thing that is still bugging me is this was the exact situation that occurred with the previous box, and the previous steering setup...I had 1.5 turns left, and 2.5 turns right. It just seems oddly coincidental that this box would be off in the exact same manner, when it was supposedly centered when installed, unless ARCTICMUTT's theory holds true, and he based center off the old box. He says he marked up the new box though...

That said, I really can't see any alternative situation that would result in what I'm seeing...Hopefully the mystery will be solved this afternoon!

 

[pb4ugo]

I think you're absolutely right, Sarge. I dropped it back off at the shop yesterday. The mechanic swore up and down that the box was centered when installed. Hopefully I'll have it back today with an explanation of what happened...

The one thing that is still bugging me is this was the exact situation that occurred with the previous box, and the previous steering setup...I had 1.5 turns left, and 2.5 turns right. It just seems oddly coincidental that this box would be off in the exact same manner, when it was supposedly centered when installed, unless ARCTICMUTT's theory holds true, and he based center off the old box. He says he marked up the new box though...

That said, I really can't see any alternative situation that would result in what I'm seeing...Hopefully the mystery will be solved this afternoon!

I'm sure the mechanic did center the box, just like the PO did. IIRC there are 4 master splines(every 90*) on saginaw boxes pitman shaft so its oreintation is limited, short of altering the pitman arm or shaft splines. The problem is between the box & the tie rod. The drag link needs to be the correct length & adjusted correctly so you have equal turning each way.

To me, Its' hard to blame the mechanic when the same problem existed b4 the new box swap.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

I'm sure the mechanic did center the box, just like the PO did. IIRC there are 4 master splines(every 90*) on saginaw boxes pitman shaft so its oreintation is limited, short of altering the pitman arm or shaft splines. The problem is between the box & the tie rod. The drag link needs to be the correct length & adjusted correctly so you have equal turning each way.

To me, Its' hard to blame the mechanic when the same problem existed b4 the new box swap.

This is exactly what I was saying - I'm not blaming the mechanic (yet) for this exact reason! Seems way too coincidental. Plus, this guy legitimately seems to know what he's doing, and is usually pretty good about catching details like this.

The PO's drag link was re-used - I'm honestly not sure how long it is, or how long they're supposed to be, for that matter.

What confuses me though, is that if the box was centered, and the drag link was too long, wouldn't I be hitting the stops on both sides of my steering? Seems odd to me that I'd be running out of gear in the steering box to the driver side. You may be absolutely right, and I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around it...but I feel like if the drag link was too long, I'd be maxing out my steering in both directions, evenly, as opposed to having an uneven number of turns.

I have a feeling my thinking is flawed because the box is mounted on one side of the truck...not in the center...Am I close?

 

[pb4ugo]

If the drag link is too short it will max out on the left & not max out going right. If too long it will be vice cersa (max rt, no max left) . From your description 1.5 rt & 2.5left, you need to adjust it longer & it will give you more right & less left. The drag link is the only thing connecting the box & the tie rod. Making a drag link adjustment shouldn't effect toe in or any caster & camber adjustments. It does effect the position the the steering wheel. That position was altered when the PO removed the stk box. You will probably have to remove the wheel & re install it. If it maxes to a bind both ways w/the link adjusted correctly then the pitman arm length is in question.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

If the drag link is too short it will max out on the left & not max out going right. If too long it will be vice cersa (max rt, no max left) . From your description 1.5 rt & 2.5left, you need to adjust it longer & it will give you more right & less left. The drag link is the only thing connecting the box & the tie rod. Making a drag link adjustment shouldn't effect toe in or any caster & camber adjustments. It does effect the position the the steering wheel. That position was altered when the PO removed the stk box. You will probably have to remove the wheel & re install it. If it maxes to a bind both ways w/the link adjusted correctly then the pitman arm length is in question.

Just got a text from my mechanic. All it says was "Box was centered. I think the Pitman Arm is wrong."

Pb4ugo: Based on what you're saying - it sounds like it might be the drag link, rather than the arm. since the steering seems skewed to one side, rather than too long/too short on both sides...Seems to me that only recourse is to measure each, and figure out what I'm dealing with. Figures that these were the 2 parts I attempted to reuse from the previous attempt at this conversion...

In the meantime: Is there any way to figure out what size pitman arm and drag link that I need? Kurt offers 2 drag links, and about a half dozen pitman arms. Since I'm obviously clueless when it comes to this steering stuff - what determines the proper size arm/drag link?

 

[pb4ugo]

It's hard to tell how long it would have to be measured for your application. It maybe fine, & not adjusted right.

Let me try to explain this differently. Now bear with me, In your current condition, 2.5Left 1.5rt. Here's a test. Disconnect the drag link from the pitman arm, now adjust the wheels so they are perfectly straight, by measuring or even better on the alignment rack, now center the steeing box by the actual amount of turns & divide by 2 to find center, pay no attention to the orentation of the steering wheel. You will likely find the drag link will be short when you try to attach it to the pitman arm. The difference between the two is where your 1/2 turn discrprency is in the box & it may not be much. You will probably have to move the Pitman arm to the right to connect them or turn the wheels/tires to the left. You can try this if you want to confirm. If there is still some adjustment left on the threads of the TRE's on the link, I would adjust more length in it so they line up, but keep an eye on how much thread is still in the link, it still needs to be safe. If there's not enuff threads for adjusment in the link then you can probably tell how much longer the link needs to be & talk to Kurt for his recommendations. Adjusted correctly it should turn equally left & right, or be real close. In your current situation you are being real hard on the left knuckle & TRE's. Some folks say just reoreint the piman arm on the shaft by the splines, but adjusting the drag link does the same & is the proper way to do it.

FYI, Your mechanic would have never checked or considered this to be a problem. He works on mostly unaltered vehicles. He centers the steering wheel & does the alignment. But if you expalin it to him he will probably understand.

 

[pbgbottle]

Looking at the pic of your pitman arm
I don't think u have to worry about the splines
Being off. I had that one also and it mounted
Straight when the box is centered. So
It should be adjustment in the drag link only
Set box straight set tires straight
Adjust rod until it pops into pitman arm
Then pull steering wheel and put it back on straight
If it looks crooked.

 

[pbgbottle]

Or set steering box centered and adjust
Rod until wheels are straight no need
To pull apart anything

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

So how much thread is not enough thread to be safe anymore, when it comes to tie rod ends?

I only have one decent shot of the drag link end - it seems pretty exposed...

I guess really debating whether its the pitman arm or the drag link end is pointless until I can get a measurement on what is installed on the truck... I'll try to get an eye-to-eye measurement for the pitman arm, along with a drag link shaft measurement.

Pb4ugo: I'll see if I can get him to run that test. Everything you are saying makes sense. I think I just need to sit in front of the 40 and have someone turn the wheels back and forth until I understand exactly what is going on, mechanically. Thank you for all of your responses. And trust me - I don't care if the steering is "perfect" I just want to be able to make a left hand U-turn on a road with less than 3 lanes without winding up on the sidewalk!

My mechanic actually does do quite a bit of custom/fabrication/resto work (on land rover defenders and series II and III's). That's why I like him - he's relatively familiar with this type of work and vehicle. That said he outsourced the alignment so steering setups may not be his forte.

 

[pb4ugo]

I cant tell by the pick. Theres a slot in the rod & you should be able to see how far the TRE is threaded into it.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Ok I got measurements. Pitman arm is approximately 6.75in eye to eye, no drop. The drag link is 26.25 - both of those seem to be "in spec" to anything sold... Nothing flagrantly "wrong" with them it seems.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Update: After much delay and deliberation, lo-and-behold, it turns out the box was off-center. They swear they had centered it, but that the "alignment shop must have changed it when they did the alignment." Not sure I buy it. In either case, the steering stops were also not set correctly - and that has, apparently, been corrected. I'll be stopping by tomorrow to pick it up, assuming all is well. As long as I have close to two turns in both directions, I'll be happy.

If the steering still doesn't want to center, I will move on to caster shims and correcting the suspension.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Ok, I got the truck back, and drove it a little - the steering is definitely better, I've got exactly 2 turns in one direction, and about 2 and 1/4 in the other - not perfect, but I'll take it...

The "return to center" action is still very minimal. I'll definitely be going with some Caster shims when it comes time to rebuild the suspension...hopefully that will alleviate the issue.

 

[Weber Sarge]

Once the box is centered the rest of the turning arc is centered at the drag link . If all is correct that pitman arm should be inline with the frame when running straight ahead .
Sarge

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Once the box is centered the rest of the turning arc is centered at the drag link . If all is correct that pitman arm should be inline with the frame when running straight ahead .
Sarge

Pitman arm is parallel with the frame - everything seems about right. Are they ever "spot on" or is a quarter turn more in one direction or the other about par for the course?

 

[inkpot]

Pitman arm is parallel with the frame - everything seems about right. Are they ever "spot on" or is a quarter turn more in one direction or the other about par for the course?

The variation in distance from left to right may be due to the steering stops not being set correctly/evenly. I just set one of these up on an 80 series yesterday. It was off by 1/4" on two of the stops, so I evened them up. Should be real close to the same on both sides. John

 

[Weber Sarge]

With stock box or FJ60/80 box it should come out equally if the drag link is the correct length to match distance from pitman arm to knuckle . Normally you center the box , adjust wheel travel distance to match out with the drag link . Sag setups can vary a lot according to length of pitman arm and it's swing angle to the frame . I'd say you need to set the stops accordingly and possibly adjust the length of the drag link to the passenger side .
Sarge