Rust Bullet Product Review (2 Viewers)

[Jukelemon]

[quote author=BigSur link=board=1;threadid=13644;start=msg127422#msg127422 date=1080315984]
I noticed you painted over the bolt and threads...how the heck are you going to get them off now? Do they recommend that?
[/quote]
Well, did not think it would be a big deal on the nuts/threads. I am assuming you are pointing to the diff housing. My thought was that it will act like paint on the threads i.e. provide a protections but break when turned. I hope I am right. Good thing my diffs are in good shape if not

Dave, not sure if you were asking me about the AL bonding. Have yet to try. My paln was to use it underneath and then paint. Not sure yet.

 

[IDave]

Well, I was really asking Rust Bullet Dave, but anyone with experience could chime in. I realize it isn't for aluminum specifically, but I have aluminum parts I want to paint, too, and of course, aluminum oxidizes.

 

[Rust Bullet]

Sorry Guys, I'm packing up for a trade show in LA this afternoon and have to have it done before closing to leave at 6 AM, I'll get back to the questions this afternoon once I know we have it all packed

Dave

 

[Sparky_Mark]

I am not familiar with the products you are talking about, but I believe (maybe because of misinformation or maybe because of assumption) that the true spirit of this product lies in that it stops rust by stopping the chemical composition that allows it to spread. Not sure how you would test that. You would need more than 500 hours to prove that.

If I'm going to spend a lot of money for a product, I would expect the manufacturer to test appropriately (at least for comparison). Unfortunately, a sample size of 1 isn't good enough in my opinion. I don't want to be a test subject - if it fails, there's no recovery of time or money. I don't have a lot of either one.

... Just lookin out for the people on the board... No harsh feelings intended.

 

[Rust Bullet]

On that note if you have any questions, please ask now. as I'll be out of town till next friday at the trade show and will not be avilable for questions till then.

 

[Rust Bullet]

[quote author=Jukelemon link=board=1;threadid=13644;start=msg127360#msg127360 date=1080309718]
A better comparison of what the frame was like before and then coated with Bullet. The frame was structurally sound but had a good deal of surface rust...a perfect environment for Bullet according to their site.
[/quote]

You did clean the frame good with at least soap and water to get the loose rust off right ?
Just checking.

 

[Rust Bullet]

[quote author=Sparky_Mark link=board=1;threadid=13644;start=msg127368#msg127368 date=1080310829]
I'm confused. All of the testing was done with clean panels. The advertized protection is contrary to the implied name of the product ??? .
[/quote]

Im not sure I see your connection. The test were performed to give an even chance to the other products in the test for "rust protection". The majority of the customers we have do not have a rust problem and are trying to prevent rust from forming as long as they can. Of the 8 products test (exclusing Rust Bullet) only one has claims of being able to paint over exsisting rust issues, this being POR-15. So it would have been far from fair to take a seasoned ( rusted) panel and apply the other products to the panel for testing. They were not designed for this type of application. All of the products tested claim to " Prevent Rust " and this was the reason for the testing. Future tests with other products on the market will include both clean and rusted panels. The rusted panels will be testing those products on the market now that state they can be applied over exsisting rust issues.

Working in a field where testing is paramount to decisions that put parts on hundreds of thousands of vehicles, this doesn't sound right. Excuse my skepticism, but I'm leary of aftermarket products and their advertized claims. I might suggest that Rust Bullet rerun their tests with a) "seasoned" panels - slightly rusted, then b) heavily oxidized and scaled test panels.

This is exactly what we have planned for the next round of tests. So far I have a list of 12 new products for the second round of tests. You have to understand where Rust Bullet came from to understand the reason for the last tests and what tests were done.

Rust Bullet was being used for very large projects and large industries when first released and testing begain. Not the avergae backyard car nuts like you and I. That finally became a relizasion when I came on board as a Distubutor and gave it to a few of our connections we had while POR-15 dealers. They were not marketing dweebs and didn't understand the large audiounce of car people out here with rust problems. This was the reason for the indroduction of the Automotive blend. The concept of using Rust Bullet on pitted metal such as old frames gave the idea to include more metal fillers in this formula as it was speculated it would see more use on rusted metals anyway. Please note the formula is the exact same formula except for the increased metal fillers. If you have a smooth surface there is no reason for Automotive Blend.

I don't mean to be negative to the board, just want to advise everyone that there probably isn't a "miracle cure" that your looking for. However, I will look forward to the test results of the heavily scaled test panels. That would be valuable information for the board.

And I hope to provide it when they have been done.
Just my opinion...

 

[Rust Bullet]

[quote author=Jukelemon link=board=1;threadid=13644;start=msg127377#msg127377 date=1080311541]
Sparky, Just read your comment. I agree that there is certainly a discrepancy in testing i.e. testing really showed how well the Bullet minimized rust spread when a portion is scratched. It is certainly illogical and un scientific to assume just because it slows/minimalizes rust spread it also changes the the chemical structire of rust when applied (read stops rust) and then forms a protective layer in that new metal (read consequence from the bonding to the rust). I am not familiar with the products you are talking about, but I believe (maybe because of misinformation or maybe because of assumption) that the true spirit of this product lies in that it stops rust by stopping the chemical composition that allows it to spread. Not sure how you would test that. You would need more than 500 hours to prove that. Any way, I guess my 40 can be the guinea pig. I certainly had enough rust to justify the test ( :
[/quote]

Most of the test preformed were requested my the Navy. Certain testing has to be done before any product can get approvel for use aboard Navy ships. the same is for pretty much any goverment location. The standards they use for testing are the ASTM testing. ALmost every company in the field use their standards to compair their results. With the Navy's approvle we did adjust one of the test they rquested to make it even harder. The chamber was operated in accordance with the procedures set forth in ASTM B117, except actual sea water was used in place of standard salt water. This provides a more natural and realistic scientific test and causes a higher salt content. This was the 500 hours test. Then, they were subjected to the Seawater Immersion Resistance test, ASTM D870. A plastic tank was filled with seawater and the panels were suspended from a line with plastic shims between the panel suspension holes. The panels were soaked in seawater for 336 hours (2 weeks). This gives a total exposure of over 800 hours to salt and water.

If you look at the test done you'll see each had it's specific reason for being done. The weathering tests were done one same same panels each time just passed one from test to test and they panels that failed were removed after each test.

As these are accelerated test, the closest we could get to real life test were by Q-Labs and and the Atlas centers. For these tests the nine coated test panels and one uncoated control panel were placed on a 37 ½ degree solar tracking device at Atlas Weathering Services Group, near Phoenix, Arizona. Ten similar panels were placed at a 5 degree solar exposure, with a biweekly spray of water at Q-Labs Weathering Research Center, also near Phoenix, Arizona. so this gave us results of exposure to scorching heat and natural weather, along with a rainy climent for one year. Pretty much the same results came to pass as the ASTM testing showed.

The reason for the X scribe was to see how well the coatings stopped rust from *crawling* under the coating when a coated surface was damaged/chipped. If for some reason you get a door ding and chips away the coating, and it allows the rust to crawl under the coating and contenue to rust anyway, what good is the coating ? In a real world issues, things are going to happen. Rocks, dings, scraps, etc etc.. This was the sole reason for the X scribe through the coatings down to metal again.

 

[The Dude]

IMO it is going to be very difficult to get an accurate test done on "rusty" panels. The testing done by rust bullet was done on "Q" panels, and gives a fair and equal starting point for all products. It gives a good indication on what the products will do when subjected to the real world.

On a more personal note, I can't believe that anybody would paint over rust or heavy scale and expect any product to last. :-\

I know everybody wants it all, but you gotta die to go to heaven, if you know what I mean

 

[Rust Bullet]

[quote author=85fj60 link=board=1;threadid=13644;start=msg127405#msg127405 date=1080314414]
Any distributors in the Seattle area??
[/quote]

Not as of yet, still setting up dealers and Distubutors. We've have 4 come online this week and more are scheduled.

 

[Rust Bullet]

[quote author=Big_Blue link=board=1;threadid=13644;start=msg127670#msg127670 date=1080346036]
IMO it is going to be very difficult to get an accurate test done on "rusty" panels. The testing done by rust bullet was done on "Q" panels, and gives a fair and equal starting point for all products. It gives a good indication on what the products will do when subjected to the real world.

[/quote]

The problem we are expecting with rusty panels is giving an *even* test. You can't control rust and how it effects metal. We can surly test on a seasoned surface but I'll BEAT YOu once we do, one of the product reps tested are going to come back with " You used a worse panel on ours" so it will be just a test for results, but that can't be called scientific as it isn't a Q panel as you state. Q panels were the only way we could start on an even playing field.

 

[Rust Bullet]

[quote author=IDave link=board=1;threadid=13644;start=msg127435#msg127435 date=1080318026]
How well does it stick to aluminum, Dave?
[/quote]

Really depends on the surface. By nature Aluminum has a very smooth surface and has little to bond to. Brushed aluminum may be better as it's not polished. Raw aluminum would be fine.

This gives me an idea for other testing.. Glad you brought it up. I'll see if we can get various metals with various surface textures and see how each product bonds and see who passed the Crosshatch Adhesion Test, <ASTM D3359> better. This test is exactly for this type of performance.

 

[Rust Bullet]

[quote author=Jukelemon link=board=1;threadid=13644;start=msg127458#msg127458 date=1080320342]
Well, did not think it would be a big deal on the nuts/threads. I am assuming you are pointing to the diff housing. My thought was that it will act like paint on the threads i.e. provide a protections but break when turned. I hope I am right. [/quote]

Wrong Try this test.. take a bolt and nut and screw then togeather. Coat with Rust Bullet and let cure.. Give it a week and then try to remove the nut.. Hope you have a big wrench.. if the nuts and case had any rust at all the bores of the metal are open more. This gives Rust Bullet a good chance of soaking into the metal and bonding very well, thus locking the two togeather.

For an example of the effect, even on smooth metal. get a small paint can or something like what Rust Bullet comes in. pour a little around the lid surface and put the lib back on. Come back in a week and get the lid off..

 

[The Dude]

How about a solvent resistence test (ASTM D5402) while your at it??

I would also like to see a front impact and a reverse impact test as well

 

[Rust Bullet]

[quote author=Sparky_Mark link=board=1;threadid=13644;start=msg127368#msg127368 date=1080310829]
The target market of this forum generally deals with heavily scaled frames. Those who don't want to take the body off and sand blast the frame before they apply a coating would be looking for a product that "prevents the promotion of the rust" that they have. I'm confident that a professional refinish system (urethane with catalyst - 2 part system) from PPG, Sherwin Willliams, Sikkens, DuPont, etc. would probably outperform this aftermarket product on clean metal. I'd be interested in seeing the test results from that. I have used PPG CRE-904 (cost comparable).

[/quote]

Such a system was in the past test samples. The test subject was the Wasser Brand Systems Panel. Wasser is most known for such projects as painting the Golden Gate Bridge, Manhattan Bridge as well as other large projects

This consisted of the following applications

MC Miozinc - moisture-cure urethane zinc primer 83% Zink by volume.

MC Ferrox B - moisture-cure urethane intermediate coating (not required but was recommened by Wasser support for better results)

MC Luster - moisture-cure urethane topcoat 62.0% solids by volume.

While it was tested with a full 3 -step process, not just 2, all containing moisture-cure urethane, it did come in 2nd in the tests.


I've done a search for specs and information data for PPG CRE-904 and can't seem to locate any on the web or on the PPG home page.. Have any ?

 

[Rust Bullet]

[quote author=Big_Blue link=board=1;threadid=13644;start=msg127684#msg127684 date=1080348143]
How about a solvent resistence test (ASTM D5402) while your at it??
[/quote]
Noted...

I would also like to see a front impact and a reverse impact test as well

May be kinda hard to get the 55 Gallon drum to travel down the track with crash dummies riding it ... but...

 

[IDave]

OK, Rust Bullet Dave,
I have another question.

One of the reasons I was attracted to Rust Bullet is that it sticks to other paints. I assume it basically works as a primer, and I don't need to prime over it.

Now hear this: One of the features I like about POR is that it is very hard, like nails. I also have trouble taking it off with a sandblaster because of that. So, maybe I want to paint some things that I didn't get all of the POR off. Now, POR doesn't stick well to other paints. So. Does POR stick to Rust Bullet? Do I have to use POR's "Joiner" paint to stick Rust Bullet and POR on the same piece of work?

That clear?

 

[Jukelemon]

[quote author=Rust Bullet link=board=1;threadid=13644;start=msg127682#msg127682 date=1080347629]
Wrong Try this test.. take a bolt and nut and screw then togeather. Coat with Rust Bullet and let cure.. Give it a week and then try to remove the nut.. Hope you have a big wrench.. if the nuts and case had any rust at all the bores of the metal are open more. This gives Rust Bullet a good chance of soaking into the metal and bonding very well, thus locking the two togeather.

For an example of the effect, even on smooth metal. get a small paint can or something like what Rust Bullet comes in. pour a little around the lid surface and put the lib back on. Come back in a week and get the lid off..

[/quote]

Lovely. I suppose I have a locked diff. case now :'(

To the point of the fellow who said it was wishful thinking to coat over rust and expect good results.....just have to disagree. There are people making chemicals that will do things you could only imagine 10 years ago. Now, I do not know if Bullet is one of them b/c I just tried it (and apparently did not read the DO NOT PUT ON THREADS AND NUTS warning). So, lets not be sceptical just because of the historical failings of other companies. On a brighter note, it better work or I am going to come after Rust Bullet (just kidding).

 

[Rust Bullet]

[quote author=IDave link=board=1;threadid=13644;start=msg128560#msg128560 date=1080538578]
OK, Rust Bullet Dave,
I have another question.

One of the reasons I was attracted to Rust Bullet is that it sticks to other paints. I assume it basically works as a primer, and I don't need to prime over it.
[/quote]

Correct, Unless your working on a surface you plan to do cosmetic or wish to have a very smooth surface for finishing and plan to lay laquar over it. If you plan to use on body panels etc, I'd lay down a couple of coats of primer on top of RUST bULLET so you can wet sand and get the finish you want the final results to be. Just use Rust Bullet as a base primer.

Now hear this: One of the features I like about POR is that it is very hard, like nails. I also have trouble taking it off with a sandblaster because of that. So, maybe I want to paint some things that I didn't get all of the POR off. Now, POR doesn't stick well to other paints. So. Does POR stick to Rust Bullet? Do I have to use POR's "Joiner" paint to stick Rust Bullet and POR on the same piece of work?

No idea, Never triedto us both products on the same surface. Bu, both have the same base, urithaine, so there should,'t be any issues. I must say that once POR-15 is cured not even POR-15 can be painted over itself as the surface is to smooth and it can't bond. To get a another coat of POR-15 to bond to previous coats, you must scuff the surface. I'd expect the same with what your asking.

That clear?

As a bell.. BTW, I wasn't kidding about being out of town, Im currently in New Orleans and found the laptop doen't have an problems out here getting connected. So after the show each night, I'll try to get online and answer those questions again. Gives me something to do whle in the hotel being bored

 

[The Dude]

[quote author=Jukelemon link=board=1;threadid=13644;start=msg128614#msg128614 date=1080567337]

To the point of the fellow who said it was wishful thinking to coat over rust and expect good results.....just have to disagree. There are people making chemicals that will do things you could only imagine 10 years ago. Now, I do not know if Bullet is one of them b/c I just tried it (and apparently did not read the DO NOT PUT ON THREADS AND NUTS warning). So, lets not be sceptical just because of the historical failings of other companies.[/quote]

Oh, don't get me wrong, If the company I work for (sorry, did I mention I work for PPG's industrial coating division in Canada?? ) could figure out how to put a coating on top of rust and make it last... I am sure they would. We would all be rich men and put the pre-treatment guys out of business..... My clients would love me!! No more pre-treatment!!

So unfortunately my skepticism is not with out merit, atleast not to me....

I do look forward to your results