RUSH55
SILVER Star
Sounds like the Land Cruiser Lean syndrome.
rear body mounts (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter xtiaan2000
- Start date
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I would pull it out and cut and turn to get more caster.
RUSH55
SILVER Star
And you’ll probably still need your steering stabilizer.
Why?
RUSH55
SILVER Star
Just a hunch. Could be wrong.
I believe “if” the TRE’s, steering box, spring bushings are tight and the geometry is correct then a steering stabilizer shouldn’t be “needed”. I’m not anti-steering stabilizers I just believe they should be used to change the feel of the steering input VS a Band-Aid for a geometry issue.
@xtiaan2000 printout shows 0.8° to 1.3° factory caster specified range and he’s somewhere around 1° on one side and 0.7° on the other with the shims. One could argue that’s within or close to factory spec, just add a stabilizer and should be fine.
I would argue that the factory 0.8° to 1.3° caster specified range wasn’t enough with the stock manual steering box, suspension components and tire size but at speeds at or around 50 MPH it was acceptable and most just lived with it. Once we start modifying springs, steering boxes, shackle angles, tire sizes then plan to drive at current highway speeds we should look at adopting some modern geometry and abandon the Toyota spec.
Edit to add my 1972 K20 had a straight front axle with a fixed 4° of caster from the factory and always drove better than my 1976 FJ55 with the fixed 1° of caster.
@xtiaan2000 printout shows 0.8° to 1.3° factory caster specified range and he’s somewhere around 1° on one side and 0.7° on the other with the shims. One could argue that’s within or close to factory spec, just add a stabilizer and should be fine.
I would argue that the factory 0.8° to 1.3° caster specified range wasn’t enough with the stock manual steering box, suspension components and tire size but at speeds at or around 50 MPH it was acceptable and most just lived with it. Once we start modifying springs, steering boxes, shackle angles, tire sizes then plan to drive at current highway speeds we should look at adopting some modern geometry and abandon the Toyota spec.
Edit to add my 1972 K20 had a straight front axle with a fixed 4° of caster from the factory and always drove better than my 1976 FJ55 with the fixed 1° of caster.
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RUSH55
SILVER Star
What did you end up setting yours at when you did your C&T?
Want to say after establishing an ideal driveshaft angle via moving the spring perches, most people were going to around 4 or 5 degrees.(?)
I guess I’m still not completely certain that actual death wobble is a steering issue or a suspension issue. It’s a dynamic problem. Some vehicles (Landcruisers) seem to exhibit it more than others when doing suspension modifications, specifically SUA.
Was going to mention earlier about the SOA, and how I’ve known some guys who didn’t do a C&T and never had an issue. My observation with that is this - everyone wants a lo-pro SOA, and even then usually good enough for 37’s. The springs have little arch, the shackles are short and stockish, very little in the way of stretching. +1 - +2 degrees caster is fine, no death wobble issues.
Want to say after establishing an ideal driveshaft angle via moving the spring perches, most people were going to around 4 or 5 degrees.(?)
I guess I’m still not completely certain that actual death wobble is a steering issue or a suspension issue. It’s a dynamic problem. Some vehicles (Landcruisers) seem to exhibit it more than others when doing suspension modifications, specifically SUA.
Was going to mention earlier about the SOA, and how I’ve known some guys who didn’t do a C&T and never had an issue. My observation with that is this - everyone wants a lo-pro SOA, and even then usually good enough for 37’s. The springs have little arch, the shackles are short and stockish, very little in the way of stretching. +1 - +2 degrees caster is fine, no death wobble issues.
I would have to go back through my build thread to find exact numbers but from memory 4° to 5° was probably what I was shooting for. But after I finished the cut and turn I had a debacle with the springs and had to relocate the front shackles and that raised the front of the springs adding more caster, without taking in to an alignment shop to get a printout no way to know for sure exactly what I have now, I’m guessing 6°+.
“Death Wobble” causes are well documented across the interwebs and on owner modified suspensions it’s almost always combination of improper geometry (usually too much caster) and worn-out parts. I believe you are correct that death wobble is more prevalent in SUA probably because the tie rod centerline to the centerline of the leaf spring pack is greater multiplying some of the forces. If you move the steering wheel from side to side on a SUA truck especially with a lift you notice way more side to side movement in the springs than you do with a similar SOA setup. My theory is once you start the side to side suspension movement like hitting a pothole the tires turn independent of the steering box and with the extra leverage plus extra movement the steering box is trying compensate but between the rotary valve and steering wheel you have a torsion bar that’s winding up in a back and forth motion and once the timing gets too far out of sync death wobble ensues.
Too little caster will make your pig darty and no fun to drive but I don’t know how big a role it plays in death wobble by itself, I would think toe and or loose/worn out components would be a bigger part on a singular issue causing death wobble. Looking at the photos @xtiaan2000 posted it appears he had all three so I’m guessing his pig wasn’t much fun to drive.
- Thread starter
- #1,089
Not Yet!
Will be soon, I have plans!
Was talking with Luke from 4x4labs yesterday and am going to try to move my tie rod to behind my axle with his frombie kit. Not sure if it will hit the frame but if it does I am going to move towards his hi steer setup. I think my panard might be not in the best angle, tie rods might be pooey, and my tie rod is bent after hitting a rock. That can't be good!
Thankfully since the stabilizer shock has been in I have had no problems. I would really like it if that shock was just for softening hitting things not for general operation.
By the way am stoked on all this discussion. It helps a lot. I have a lot to learn.
Will be soon, I have plans!
Was talking with Luke from 4x4labs yesterday and am going to try to move my tie rod to behind my axle with his frombie kit. Not sure if it will hit the frame but if it does I am going to move towards his hi steer setup. I think my panard might be not in the best angle, tie rods might be pooey, and my tie rod is bent after hitting a rock. That can't be good!
Thankfully since the stabilizer shock has been in I have had no problems. I would really like it if that shock was just for softening hitting things not for general operation.
By the way am stoked on all this discussion. It helps a lot. I have a lot to learn.
Me too!
RUSH55
SILVER Star
Good points Jim, I’m glad we’ve arrived here.
This is me also. Yes, tons of info out there, this website has thread after thread, nothing I’ve ever found was ever an absolute. Everyone’s “fix” was/is something different. Tires, bushings, TRE’s, etc, etc... I would think that a vehicle could drive with worn components and still not exhibit this issue.
Great theory - very interesting note of the centerlines of the tie rod and leaf spring pack. Longer front shackle, more rotation of the axle housing to compensate for caster, an increase in distance between these two points creating leverage? The steering box takes a brunt of this between the gear teeth.
@xtiaan2000 , glad you’re liking the discussion, was starting to feel bad about the takeover of your build thread here.
This
This is me also. Yes, tons of info out there, this website has thread after thread, nothing I’ve ever found was ever an absolute. Everyone’s “fix” was/is something different. Tires, bushings, TRE’s, etc, etc... I would think that a vehicle could drive with worn components and still not exhibit this issue.
Great theory - very interesting note of the centerlines of the tie rod and leaf spring pack. Longer front shackle, more rotation of the axle housing to compensate for caster, an increase in distance between these two points creating leverage? The steering box takes a brunt of this between the gear teeth.
@xtiaan2000 , glad you’re liking the discussion, was starting to feel bad about the takeover of your build thread here.
RUSH55
SILVER Star
Having been through this issue and never actually coming to a concrete cause and solution puts it high on my interesting topic list.
- Thread starter
- #1,093
Looks like it was not the nylon piece but the handle itself. Does anyone have beta on the 3d route with these?i have only two in my stash.
I have one that could be copied.
- Thread starter
- #1,094
Fixed my door and moved onto my drvrs seat. Pulled it apart. Should it look like this?
Its metal. I have a welder. Hmmm...
Its metal. I have a welder. Hmmm...
- Thread starter
- #1,095
Welding is cool!
Don’t think this will happen again with these additional supports!
bobm
WTF, WTF, WTF!!!!
Isn't it 
Have you considered something like this:
m.northerntool.com
You know to “take a little bit of stress” off those seats?
Poor thing didn’t stand a chance against your backside.
K & M Low-Profile Mechanical Seat Suspension, Model# 6081 | Northern Tool
K & M's Low-Profile Mechanical Seat Suspension adds a suspension ride to a non-suspension seat with minimal height ...
m.northerntool.com
You know to “take a little bit of stress” off those seats?
Poor thing didn’t stand a chance against your backside.
- Thread starter
- #1,098
This cyber bullying by Nookshear is unacceptable! That chair breaking had nothing to do with my backside. It ha more to do with See’s candy and alcohol! And I can’t help that. It’s a condition called chubby.
- Thread starter
- #1,099
Did a little late afternoon wheeling/dining trip! Texas Canyon and fillet mignon.
It was nice not to be the one teetering in three wheels this trip. I had to run up the hill and jump on the front driverfender to pull the thing back from the abyss. His rear wheels got kicked out to the side on a spicy climb.
My daddy always said “it’s better to be lucky than smart”.
- Thread starter
- #1,100
Is everyone else’s screens white now?
