Question on portals and TT mag article (1 Viewer)

[Rock Taxi]

Ok, if the price is going to be that low, I am very interested.

What about strength upgrades though? My front D60 is at it's limit given weight of the rig, tire size and gearing.

Do you need a guinea pig for that aspect?

Ed

 

[KillerPea]

Hey guys....I finally made it over to this site!!. Thanks for the compliments on the rig.
There are several reasons I went with SUA and stuck with leaf springs. First...I like to wheel. I don't fab full time, so I didn't really feel like spending the extra time with my truck down to do a coil suspension. I also wanted to prove it could be done and would work right, as I had several people tell me there was no way to use the Portals and springs and have good performance. The slight amount of clearance lost to the leaf spring is at the end of the axle, near the tire, and isn't anything I notice. With leafs, the truck is very stable and predictable.
As a matter of fact, it wouldn't even be possible to use the Volvo's in a SOA configuration. At this point, I could fit 44's under the truck if I thought the axles would handle them. The additional 5 or 6 inches of lift from a SOA would be enough to run 53's...and we know they won't hold up to that.
Now that it is all together and working well, I may consider going to a 4-link/radius arm setup on the truck. Not because I need to, but simply because I can't stop changing things
We shall see.

 

[concretejungle]

Damn Todd, i thought you said you threw that pic away and that you would never use it against me!

 

[tclndcrz]

7-10 year??? how bout 7-10 months......

i would do it now but i dont want to tackle this project until i finish college and get my real job so i have money flowing. I think you have some awesome prices and a great product. i really wish i could buy them now but i have to pay for college right now.

with the 9 inch and 60 outers what kind of rubber do you think they can handle?

btw i cant wait to see these axles under everyones trucks.

 

[Stumper]

Some of the research we have done, is that we found people running Volvo portals that had broken parts, and had them ship us those broken parts to determine cause of failure. We took those parts and had them analyzed and metal tested to see what caused the breakage. We then redesigned the portal box to accomadate and fix the cause of the problem.
We dont have the boxes done yet, but even before field testing I am willing to bet that with the changes we made, tire size's that the axles can handle may be up to 53", but that is pretty inconclusive as to we dont have a final product to work with yet...
Once we get a complete system done, I can honestly say we will beat the living s*** out of it to find breakage points, on multilple vehicles, with multiple drivetrains, tire sizes...ect...
Last thing I want is to sell someone a set of these and have a major issue just because they were running too big of a tire or something.
We have done alot of stress testing on the parts we have, and just need to put all the pieces together to see if we missed anything..
And, on a side note, we are very close to keeping the weight of these right around the current Volvo Portal setup, which is WAY lighter then the Mog setups.
Let me know what other questions you have, and any ideas as well. Portal_tek and I cant get enough feedback on all of this.

 

[woody]

80-suspension...I don't have one yet (on the list) but do you forsee the ability to run the stock-type front arms with portals, or a requirement to add additional rotational control? The "standard" rear 4-link should control it fine, tho I would expect the lowers to locate below the axle centerline and not parallel, inhibiting clearance a bit...

hhhhmmm....all very interesting...got a website up we can drool on yet?


Gotta admit, I was really impressed with KillerPee's setup after watching him in Poteau and Clayton...

 

[orangefj45]

53s on a volvo style portal? that's a bold statement. but i do very much respect all the work and effort you're putting into this.

 

[DieselFJ]

Thanks, I hope to have and axle that will work for everyone.

As for the tire size, since there is a 2 to 1 gear reduction on a portal axle the stress on the setup is quite different than a standard axle. The stress is actually on the box, and everything outside that. Because of this our axle should support at least 20% more that a D60.

We are working on getting a website up by next weekend showing our progress and our design. Please keep the questions comming.

Scott

 

[DieselFJ]

Woody, since these axles are completely custom, we can do anything as per rotation and suspension setup. 80 series front type lower control arms would be perfect with the setup. Since we are doing the 9", we can do a high pinion setup to give as much clearance as possible in the center, but you are right about the rears being a little lower, but still an amazing amount of clearance even with the stock setup.

We actually have a new 4-link syspension we are going to try on a buggie which we are building now which should give the most amount of clearance as well as wheel contol and traction.

Scott

 

[Rock Taxi]

Thanks, I hope to have and axle that will work for everyone.

As for the tire size, since there is a 2 to 1 gear reduction on a portal axle the stress on the setup is quite different than a standard axle. The stress is actually on the box, and everything outside that. Because of this our axle should support at least 20% more that a D60.

We are working on getting a website up by next weekend showing our progress and our design. Please keep the questions comming.

Scott

I can scatter my front 60 at will with 44" TLS's. 20% would not take me to 53's.

Seriously though. What have you done to the box? I would love to run a portal axle, but even Exaxt said I should not run their 404's with my setup due to expected breakage. I would like to know what you have done to beef it up.

Ed

 

[Overlord]

Portal_tek/Stumper,

Are the portal boxes 2 or 3 gear? Are you utilizing u-joints or cv's?

 

[ridgerunner]

There's still 16" of clearance under that ubolt. (with 36"s)

Leafs also take away a lot of axle wrap.

Leaf springs are cheap. Volvo portals are cheap (well, this statement was once true.)

Edit: PortalTek- I'm currious about how your portal boxes are going to work using 60 axle parts. I'm assuming the portal box will be after the steering joint instead of like the Avalanche abomination?

 

[DieselFJ]

Rock Taxi, what we have done to the box is added bearings. We were concerned with the flex allowed from the Volvo box, eVen though it was very very minimal, we decided we needed to address this issue. We re-engineered the box to act more like a full floating axle, which will eliminate the flex allowed by the Volvo box, as well as distribute the vehicle weight much better. The reason the 404 axles will not hold up with your setup is the Mog box is a bolt together box. The pressure and stess(especially in offcamber situations) from hp and tire size on the Mog box will eventually emplode the box. Since we are running a cast box with the imporvement stated above you should not have any issues running our axles with your 44. As for 53's we will just have to wait and see

Overlord, the boxes are a 2 gear 2 to 1 gear reduction. What we would like to do is use a birfield but this is still something we would like to get some feedback on, what would you like to see? I like the strength of the birfield as well as the longevity(as long as they are maintained).

ridgerunner the 60 parts will basically be from the spindle out. As for the stearing we are going to keep the kingpin behind the box, next the box, then the 60 outers. By the way, nice picture, that is the exact setup I am going to run on my 79 40. Portal_tek axles, 2.5 inch spring under with inverted u-bolts, high pinion center. I can't wait to get to the point you are at. By the way, where did you get your tires? I assume you are running a stock Volvo wheel?

 

[ridgerunner]

ridgerunner the 60 parts will basically be from the spindle out. As for the stearing we are going to keep the kingpin behind the box, next the box, then the 60 outers. By the way, nice picture, that is the exact setup I am going to run on my 79 40. Portal_tek axles, 2.5 inch spring under with inverted u-bolts, high pinion center. I can't wait to get to the point you are at. By the way, where did you get your tires? I assume you are running a stock Volvo wheel?

So what will be the diameter of the outer shaft?

Good luck in your project. I built the truck, wheeled it some, and took it apart. I bought the 9.00R16s from Vince Sweeney for $20 each, and ran them with tubes on the stock rim. I've since traded them to a friend (who past on this summer, damn.) for some smaller Viskafors for another project.

 

[Overlord]

Overlord, the boxes are a 2 gear 2 to 1 gear reduction. What we would like to do is use a birfield but this is still something we would like to get some feedback on, what would you like to see? I like the strength of the birfield as well as the longevity(as long as they are maintained).

With the 2 gear design, how are you dealing with the oiling issues of the flipped diff? Why a birfield? They kind of have a bad reputation around here. How about a double cardan joint like the mogs use? Be sweet for turning radius!

 

[DieselFJ]

There were a couple of options we looked at for tackling the oiling issue. Either a wiper will be installed in the case that will pick up the oil and direct it to the pinion bearing(easy and straight forward), or since we are building the housings, putting the fill plug higher in the case where the fluid will be in contact with the bearing. If the second option was to be used the fluid would have to be an ATF.

As for the birfield, there were a couple of reasons, first the turning radius on a birf is really good as well. Second, with the advancements in the birf, they have become, or can be built very stout. I do like the idea of the double cardon u-joint. The birf and the double cardon were the two options we liked, and we have been looking at the benifits of both. We really want to make the axles to what the customer wants. This was our hesitation with the birf, they have gotten a bad rap from Cruiser with high hp. If the birf is built to handle the hp and torq, I believe it would be a stout as the double cardon u-joint. Thanks for the input, keep it comming.

Scott

 

[Overlord]

What spline size with you be using for the inner axle Ford 9"?

 

[cruiserrg]

Rock Taxi, what we have done to the box is added bearings. We were concerned with the flex allowed from the Volvo box, eVen though it was very very minimal, we decided we needed to address this issue. We re-engineered the box to act more like a full floating axle, which will eliminate the flex allowed by the Volvo box, as well as distribute the vehicle weight much better. The reason the 404 axles will not hold up with your setup is the Mog box is a bolt together box. The pressure and stess(especially in offcamber situations) from hp and tire size on the Mog box will eventually emplode the box. Since we are running a cast box with the imporvement stated above you should not have any issues running our axles with your 44. As for 53's we will just have to wait and see

Sounds like it will be a sucuessful project. I have always thought portals boxes could be rebuilt to incorporate a spinde and hub assebmly to make them stronger. You should also consider building the same type of thing for a 404 MOG with 8 lug hubs already built in. It would be nice to see along with incorporation of a disc brake mount and beefy high steer arms.

Only concern I would have is the width of the assembly with the hubs, esp if using stock d60 stuff. In my mind the hub should be narrow with a narrow hubs, much like racing hubs.

 

[DieselFJ]

Overlord -- We are using a 31 spline, but if someone was a custom 35 we can do that as well. With the portal the stress is moved out to the box ends, eliminating the need for extremely beefy inneraxles.

cruiserrg -- Thanks for the positive response. The reason we chose a standard d60 was first, the assembly will really not be much larger than the original 303 assembly. There will be a little added width, but not excessive. Also, that extra width gives people the option of buying off the shelf 8 lug wheels with a standard backspacing. Personally, I plan on getting a custom wheel made that will have the backspacing to cover the entire box assembly. I have not considered a narrow width hub, but I do like the idea. The reason we don't currently have a plan for the 404 axle is because of its inherent weekness. After seeing some emploded boxes we decided not to produce anything for the 404 at this point. We wanted to make something that will be bomb proof, and as we start up we didn't want to put our name on something that is going to break. I think in the future it could be a possibility, but I am hoping that people start buying our axles instead of a 1.5 to 2.5 ton mog axle. Ours will be much lighter, not as bulky, extremely strong, parts will be easily available and easily installed. Granted, they will cost more, buy you will get much more for the cost.

Thanks
Scott

 

[cruiserrg]

I run stock Hummer rims to get great backspacing to cover my portal boxes as much as possible. I believe the spindle idea and a 1 piece new case would solve all "weakness" in the MOG cases. Sounded like what you are doing to the 303s so thats why I asked. Maybe someday I'll get around to doing it...or at least the next lifetime.