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The answer to this question may be buried in the depths of another thread but I can’t find it. so, apologies to the search warriors in advance.

I have an ‘03 LX with nav. I don’t want to do a delete. The ML system is fine but it’s rather flat for me. I want to add some bass.

I am buying this:

The question relates to hooking it up. I have no problem getting 12v and remote power to it. I’m confused about where to get the high level input. Should I just clip the factory sub speaker wire (there’s just two wires on my OEM sub) and use those or do I need to give it full range signal (ie tapping into the front speakers)?

Any other ideas I should be thinking about?
 
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You should be able to just clip the sub wires and use the high-level inputs on the new amp/sub. You'll only get the frequencies that the factory subs were receiving, but I'm guessing there wasn't a high-pass filter on the factory sub signal which would limit the ultra-low frequencies you're trying to augment. Someone who has more direct experience with the 03 LX may be able to comment there.
 
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You should be able to just clip the sub wires and use the high-level inputs on the new amp/sub. You'll only get the frequencies that the factory subs were receiving, but I'm guessing there wasn't a high-pass filter on the factory sub signal which would limit the ultra-low frequencies you're trying to augment. Someone who has more direct experience with the 03 LX may be able to comment there.
That’s sort of what I’m thinking. I don’t want to over complicate this. The Crutchfield folks want to sell me a line output converter to tie in between the OEM speaker wires and the new amp and I’m just not sure it’s necessary.
 
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I would start simple, and then make changes if you feel they're necessary. If the amp already has high-level inputs, I don't see what value a line output converter brings. I'd say throw the sub in there, and if you like how it sounds you're all done.

I'm an audio guy- I love great sounding audio, and I like designing my own speakers, amplifiers, and filters, but there is value in having a simple solution. There's no such thing as perfect when it comes to audio, so everyone has to make their own determination on when things are good enough.
 

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The answer to this question may be buried in the depths of another thread but I can’t find it. so, apologies to the search warriors in advance.

I have an ‘03 LX with nav. I don’t want to do a delete. The ML system is fine but it’s rather flat for me. I want to add some bass.

I am buying this:

The question relates to hooking it up. I have no problem getting 12v and remote power to it. I’m confused about where to get the high level input. Should I just clip the factory sub speaker wire (there’s just two wires on my OEM sub) and use those or do I need to give it full range signal (ie tapping into the front speakers)?

Any other ideas I should be thinking about?
If I were adding a sub, I would make sure to grab a full range signal.

That said, @VagabondJesse is totally right - all depends on your expectations and how much work/$ is saved by just using the existing sub line. I'm sure it won't sound bad, even if the factory sub-signal is heavily processed by the factory amp. I'm also thinking grabbing a full-range signal without disturbing the existing ML system might be a challenge.

Unfortunately, the 100 series in all its varieties is not very aftermarket-integration-friendly. It's annoyingly involved to properly integrate a component here and there compared to a simpler system you might find in a typical Toyota.

Also side note: The ML system is actually really nice. I recently drove a 2018 GX460 with base audio for a weekend. Audio was notably worse than my 06 LX ML system. The 06LX has much more clarity and bass extension. Made me appreciate it a little more as I continue to plot its removal in the coming year or two.
 

ramangain

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The answer to this question may be buried in the depths of another thread but I can’t find it. so, apologies to the search warriors in advance.

I have an ‘03 LX with nav. I don’t want to do a delete. The ML system is fine but it’s rather flat for me. I want to add some bass.

I am buying this:

The question relates to hooking it up. I have no problem getting 12v and remote power to it. I’m confused about where to get the high level input. Should I just clip the factory sub speaker wire (there’s just two wires on my OEM sub) and use those or do I need to give it full range signal (ie tapping into the front speakers)?

Any other ideas I should be thinking about?
This is BY FAR the path of least resistance (pun intended!). That sub also sells out fast when in stock, so if it's available, buy it.
 
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If I were adding a sub, I would make sure to grab a full range signal.

Curious, why do you see a benefit in this situation to a full-range signal? I figured if the lowpass crossover was already set to work well with the factory mids and highs, you're not going to benefit by choosing a different frequency with an aftermarket sub. Of course, if the factory sub is getting a bandpass signal that's a different story. @suprarx7nut I know you've done a lot more with the sound systems in the 100's than I have...
 

suprarx7nut

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Curious, why do you see a benefit in this situation to a full-range signal? I figured if the lowpass crossover was already set to work well with the factory mids and highs, you're not going to benefit by choosing a different frequency with an aftermarket sub. Of course, if the factory sub is getting a bandpass signal that's a different story. @suprarx7nut I know you've done a lot more with the sound systems in the 100's than I have...
Because the full range signal is most likely to be "flat". I haven't measured the ML system at all, but I suspect the sub signals are more tweaked than a simple low pass, or even bandpass. It's all speculation, but I expect in a premium system like the ML they at least took a stab at reducing peaks in the response of the sub they chose. It's essentially guaranteed that the ML subwoofer and box peaks are different than most anything you'd grab off the shelf. My 06 has an impressive low end as well, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was some selective boosting of certain frequencies as well. Therefore, I suspect using that processed signal on a different assembly is going to have unintended peaks and/or de-amplified frequency ranges.

But to your point, this is all about expectations. For a $330 powered sub that you can install in an hour you can't expect a theatre experience and using the existing high level sub input is probably fine.

After living through a few DSP tunes in my 99 with decent gear I'm very sold on the fine-tune approach that a DSP can offer. It also made me much more aware of how much a little uneven-ness in response can make a speaker sound ok/off/terrible. It was amazing how much better or worse I could make my "nice" components sound. The bass was transformed after spending an evening tweaking to remove the errant peaks.

Using the full range signal won't yield the benefit of a DSP tune, obviously, but it might get you a better starting place with a flatter signal. Worth reiterating again though, all about expectations and I think your advice on the simple solution is valid.
 
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Because the full range signal is most likely to be "flat". I haven't measured the ML system at all, but I suspect the sub signals are more tweaked than a simple low pass, or even bandpass. It's all speculation, but I expect in a premium system like the ML they at least took a stab at reducing peaks in the response of the sub they chose. It's essentially guaranteed that the ML subwoofer and box peaks are different than most anything you'd grab off the shelf. My 06 has an impressive low end as well, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was some selective boosting of certain frequencies as well. Therefore, I suspect using that processed signal on a different assembly is going to have unintended peaks and/or de-amplified frequency ranges.

But to your point, this is all about expectations. For a $330 powered sub that you can install in an hour you can't expect a theatre experience and using the existing high level sub input is probably fine.

After living through a few DSP tunes in my 99 with decent gear I'm very sold on the fine-tune approach that a DSP can offer. It also made me much more aware of how much a little uneven-ness in response can make a speaker sound ok/off/terrible. It was amazing how much better or worse I could make my "nice" components sound. The bass was transformed after spending an evening tweaking to remove the errant peaks.

Using the full range signal won't yield the benefit of a DSP tune, obviously, but it might get you a better starting place with a flatter signal. Worth reiterating again though, all about expectations and I think your advice on the simple solution is valid.

So, I’ll run with this. Which wires provide full range signal? The rears, correct? Do you know which colors they are?

CE9F8D90-2F2F-44E7-8C8C-AEEC46A22450.jpeg
 

ramangain

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So, I’ll run with this. Which wires provide full range signal? The rears, correct? Do you know which colors they are?

View attachment 2737846
Mistake IMHO. I'm guessing ease of installation is important. Just use the wires going to the stock sub box by disconnecting the stock sub box and splicing into those wires with these (to keep the OEM connector to the sub box):

Amazon product
That Punch sub will sound revolutionary compared to the OEM unit. Fine tuning with an EQ or DSP would just be icing on the cake and really complicate the wiring.

You can always test if the signal going to the OEM sub has a LPF from the amp. Just connect the door pillar tweeter to the output going to the sub. The tweeter has an in-line cap to prevent damage from low frequencies. If the output from the sub has anything at perhaps 1KHz or above, the tweeter should reproduce it.
 

suprarx7nut

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Mistake IMHO. I'm guessing ease of installation is important. Just use the wires going to the stock sub box by disconnecting the stock sub box and splicing into those wires with these (to keep the OEM connector to the sub box):

Amazon product
That Punch sub will sound revolutionary compared to the OEM unit. Fine tuning with an EQ or DSP would just be icing on the cake and really complicate the wiring.

You can always test if the signal going to the OEM sub has a LPF from the amp. Just connect the door pillar tweeter to the output going to the sub. The tweeter has an in-line cap to prevent damage from low frequencies. If the output from the sub has anything at perhaps 1KHz or above, the tweeter should reproduce it.
I feel like the devil on one shoulder with you on the other side, haha.
 

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I'm sure you will enjoy it. I'm loving this 8" powered sub mounted behind the console.

Though the head unit, amp, and door speakers were all replaced and new wiring that was run from the head unit to the sub.

1626909576357.png
 

suprarx7nut

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what I’m seeing elsewhere is:


View attachment 2737866
Here's my 06 Wiring Diagram situation. Can't guarantee it's the same for you. Rears may or may not be full range. I'd go for the signal coming *into* the amplifier. Trick there is to not to disturb the incoming signal to the amp as you still need that for the other speakers. Line taps or splicing properly should take care of that. Can't just cut and leave the lines laying there.

Your picture shows the connector A. A has the post-processed signals. You want the other one, B. B has the incoming signals from the stereo.

If you do a line converter, make sure to use the ASGD for ground. Using chassis ground for audio signals with the factory amp/radio is a recipe for disaster. Chassis ground is fine for the power lines on the sub, just not for audio signals. Again, you must leave the ASGD signal for the amp, so no cut and run. Have to splice in properly.

1626909727730.png


1626909866956.png



Other stereo diagram images for anyone interested. Looks like the amp uses specifically different outputs for the front woofers (called simply door speaker) and then a combined output for mid and tweeter signal. Of course, separate outputs for the factory (sub)woofer.

Hopefully that helps and hopefully I'm not leading you down a path of confusion and misery. :D

1626910353516.png

1626910386328.png
 
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ramangain

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^^^^^ Noted, and thank you as I speculated all three front drivers get split from a single pair of wires. I stand corrected, but too lazy to find and fix my speculative posts from the past.

KISS theory will always hold when mucking around with the ML systems: Keep it simple stupid
 
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Here's my 06 Wiring Diagram situation. Can't guarantee it's the same for you. Rears may or may not be full range. I'd go for the signal coming *into* the amplifier. Trick there is to not to disturb the incoming signal to the amp as you still need that for the other speakers. Line taps or splicing properly should take care of that. Can't just cut and leave the lines laying there.

Your picture shows the connector A. A has the post-processed signals. You want the other one, B. B has the incoming signals from the stereo.

If you do a line converter, make sure to use the ASGD for ground. Using chassis ground for audio signals with the factory amp/radio is a recipe for disaster. Chassis ground is fine for the power lines on the sub, just not for audio signals. Again, you must leave the ASGD signal for the amp, so no cut and run. Have to splice in properly.

View attachment 2737899

View attachment 2737901


Other stereo diagram images for anyone interested. Looks like the amp uses specifically different outputs for the front woofers (called simply door speaker) and then a combined output for mid and tweeter signal. Of course, separate outputs for the factory (sub)woofer.

Hopefully that helps and hopefully I'm not leading you down a path of confusion and misery. :D

View attachment 2737911
View attachment 2737912

I’m curious @suprarx7nut - why not use the “post amp” signal? If doing so, I’d assume this would be a “low pass” signal input to the amp, correct? Also, what is ASGD?
 
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suprarx7nut

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I’m curious @suprarx7nut - why not use the “post amp” signal? If doing so, I’d assume this would be a “low pass” signal input to the amp, correct? Also, what is ASGD?
Because the purpose of this exercise is to avoid as much "flavor" (IE processing) that the ML system adds as we can. The ML amp is where the tweaking is likely to occur and we don't want that if we can avoid it.

Low-pass signal into amp - not sure what you mean there. The signal going into the amp is full range. Signal coming out of amp is likely tweaked somehow on all channels. None of those tweaks were done with your new amp/sub in mind and I think are likely to introduce a non-ideal signal. You want to start as flat as you can - and that's typically the input lines going into the amp.

ASGD is the ground loop used for the audio signal. It is separate from chassis ground. I believe ASGD stands for Audio Signal Ground. It is notably different than chassis ground and can cause horrible audio quality issues if the two are mixed. As long as you're using the factory amp, you cannot/should not use chassis ground in any audio signal.
 
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Because the purpose of this exercise is to avoid as much "flavor" (IE processing) that the ML system adds as we can. The ML amp is where the tweaking is likely to occur and we don't want that if we can avoid it.

Low-pass signal into amp - not sure what you mean there. The signal going into the amp is full range. Signal coming out of amp is likely tweaked somehow on all channels. None of those tweaks were done with your new amp/sub in mind and I think are likely to introduce a non-ideal signal. You want to start as flat as you can - and that's typically the input lines going into the amp.

ASGD is the ground loop used for the audio signal. It is separate from chassis ground. I believe ASGD stands for Audio Signal Ground. It is notably different than chassis ground and can cause horrible audio quality issues if the two are mixed. As long as you're using the factory amp, you cannot/should not use chassis ground in any audio signal.
That makes perfect sense
 
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I’m curious @suprarx7nut - why not use the “post amp” signal? If doing so, I’d assume this would be a “low pass” signal input to the amp, correct? Also, what is ASGD?

Because the purpose of this exercise is to avoid as much "flavor" (IE processing) that the ML system adds as we can. The ML amp is where the tweaking is likely to occur and we don't want that if we can avoid it.

Low-pass signal into amp - not sure what you mean there. The signal going into the amp is full range. Signal coming out of amp is likely tweaked somehow on all channels. None of those tweaks were done with your new amp/sub in mind and I think are likely to introduce a non-ideal signal. You want to start as flat as you can - and that's typically the input lines going into the amp.

ASGD is the ground loop used for the audio signal. It is separate from chassis ground. I believe ASGD stands for Audio Signal Ground. It is notably different than chassis ground and can cause horrible audio quality issues if the two are mixed. As long as you're using the factory amp, you cannot/should not use chassis ground in any audio signal.
I managed to snag those pre-amp inputs and ran the signals over to the area I intend to install my line output converter and amp. One step closer! Thanks for the pointers so far
 

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