PTO Winch Information (1 Viewer)

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@Billsboat
Your PTO unit looks like mine. In your picture, let's assume the actuating lever (the flat bar sticking straight up, with the hole in the top for the shifting linkage) is in neutral, so the input gear (that meshes with the transfer case) is free wheeling, not driving the PTO unit).

If the lever is pulled forward with the linkage, the output gear is engaged directly to the large input gear, and the PTO drive shaft turns in the opposite direction as the input gear.

If the lever is pulled backward with the linkage, the output gear engages with the "reverse idler gear", and the reverse idler gear is constantly engaged with the small input gear. In this case, the PTO drive shaft turns in the same direction as the input gear.

I believe that your shift linkage (or the hole in your transmission tunnel cover) has not been adjusted to allow you to shift into the forward or backward position, which only provides you the result you are observing.


EDIT: There is also the possibility that someone removed the reverse idler gear, in which case, pulling the lever backwards will just disengage the output gear.

Also, FYI, if you don't have one yet, I think the boot for the lower shaft is still available.
 
So this pto ( as best as I can tell) has three positions. Center is neutral, pulling lever back engages the PTO, and forward does nothing. The seller of this pto (shelfboy1) tells me this how this pto works. Given all I’ve read from him, he seems very knowledgeable...and a nice guy too! I have no experience with pto winches hence my questions for you guys. As I mentioned before in this thread the previous owner of this wench must have had the same issue. The front angle iron had been cut away to accommodate the cable feeding out the bottom of the spool
 
"The front angle iron had been cut away to accommodate the cable feeding out the bottom of the spool"

So, bottom line, you knew all along your setup was "different".

Everyone who responded to your questions assumed it was "normal".
 
73FJ40 said:
@Billsboat



Great. Where is the PTO unit, which is bolted to the transfer case? And, what about the PTO engagement linkage? Is the PTO unit and the transfer linkage the three position version, (My older version OEM PTO unit has a three position lever, the middle position disengaged, forward position, and rearward positions alternatively give the winch three speeds of winding out or winding in.) I'm wondering what your equipment is.
Click to expand...
This pto indeed has three positions. It is only engaged when I pull the lever back. When I push it fully forward nothing happens. The previous own reports to me that this is normal
 
"The previous own reports to me that this is normal"

Maybe "normal" for the setup you bought, but I don't know about how "The front angle iron had been cut away to accommodate the cable feeding out the bottom of the spool" would be considered "normal" :hmm:
 
73FJ40 said:
"The front angle iron had been cut away to accommodate the cable feeding out the bottom of the spool"

So, bottom line, you knew all along your setup was "different".

Everyone who responded to your questions assumed it was "normal".
Click to expand...
I explained when I started this thread what was going on with the pto/ winch, so yes I knew it was different (I used the word “custom”). This is why I started the thread, to see if there was a solution... ie flipping a gear around.
 
As a matter of interest , does the inch long shaft spotting out of the front winch ,has a key set ?

Renago
 
renago said:
As a matter of interest , does the inch long shaft spotting out of the front winch ,has a key set ?

Renago
Click to expand...
Renago, I’m not sure what your looking at, but the only key set is on the spool shaft it self...I’m pretty sure
 
The question was aiming to understand if the shaft was turned .
and consequently also the worm gear .
this could make turn the main bronze gear in the wrong direction .
Normally the protruding shaft from the winch block , has a key set , that allows a manual function of the winch .
if not present , something is not standard , and right .
but in any case you should make the PTO work properly in reverse , neutral ,forward .

bye Renago
 
73fj40lc said:
Since you don't yet have the rope on the drum are you sure you aren't visualizing the direction that the drum should be moving in your mind wrong? I am not exactly sure what your issue is but just to make sure that we are all on the same page as far as putting the rope on a winch. How you wind the cable or rope around the winch drum DIRECTLY affects the direction that the rope will move (in or out) in relation to the winch drum. If you run a winch in the exact same rotational direction, lets say foward in this case. Wrapping the rope from the top of the winch drum will make the winch rope move in one direction, while winding from the bottom of the drum will make the rope move in the opposite direction even though the winch drum is moving in the exact same rotational (foward) direction. The rope direction changes with wrapping from the top or from the bottom of the drum. I am not positive but I don't think you can have a gear backwards to make the winch direction actually reverse. I could be completely wrong on this though. I am far from being an expert on any PTO winch.

Take a pencil and a string and use it as a small scale model of your winch. Take the pencil and wrap a piece of string around it. Rotate the pencil away from you and see what the direction the string is moving in or out. Now flip the pencil 180 degrees and make absolutely sure that you still rotate the pencil away from you just like you did the first time. The direction that the string is moving should now be exactly opposite of what it was before. Even though the rotational direction of the pencil is exactly the same what changed was weither the string was coming over the top of the pencil or from the bottom of the pencil and that is what changed the direction of the string not the direction of the drum.

Again since I don't know that much about PTO winches what I believe that @cruiserdan was saying that your winch rope should be wrapped around the drum with the rope coming over the top of the drum and leaving the winch. If wrapped over the top of the drum the rope should move in if the transmission in foward. Transmission in reverse the rope should spool out. I believe that you have all that already figured out.

Electric winches are exactly the opposite as they are all wrapped under the drum. Wrapping under the drum also keeps the load and shear forces concentrated down lower near the base of the winch instead of at the top.

Hopefully if you already knew all this then maybe it will help someone else. :cheers:
Click to expand...
Amazing write up! Thank you for your time. Ya, my winch is doing the just the opposite of what it should be doing...now I’m wondering if the pto should engage both when I pull the lever back, and push it forward. I’m hoping to get a bit more input on this notion
 
Billsboat said:
Amazing write up! Thank you for your time. Ya, my winch is doing the just the opposite of what it should be doing...now I’m wondering if the pto should engage both when I pull the lever back, and push it forward. I’m hoping to get a bit more input on this notion
Click to expand...

You seemed to have already have a good grasp on what the problem was just not what was actually causing it. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't something simple that you were overlooking. Hopefully my post will help someone later on that needed the info.

I really am curious to know what exactly is causing your problem. I am leaning towards a mix of parts from different years and a PO who did modifications to the original setup. It always helps to actually fix a problem instead of jerry rigging something to work. Unfortunately many PO go for the quick fix instead of the real fix.
 
My guess is that Billsboat's PTO unit is missing the reverse idler gear, or, the spacer is missing and the gear has moved out of alignment, or some other malady with the reverse idler gear train. I pointed this out back in my post #121, in red, hoping that would alert someone to the potential issue. Oh, well. :bang:

My post above, #121, refers to Billboat's picture in post #118. I refer to the lever IN THAT PICTURE, which is attached to the back of the PTO unit. Pushing THAT lever backward (WHICH IS THE EQUIVALENT OF MOVING THE LEVER IN THE CAB FORWARD) is DESIGNED to engage the output gear to the reverse idler gear which is driven by the smaller input gear. This is the intended WIND position of the lever in the cab.

Moving the cab lever to the rear, pulls the PTO unit lever forward, which is designed to engage the output gear to the large input gear, which is the intended UNWIND position of the cab lever.

Since the PTO unit is driven by the output shaft of the transmission, WIND and UNWIND have three speeds, governed by what gear the transmission is in. By the same token, for instance, if you shift the transmission into reverse with the cab lever in the WIND (forward) position, you will effectively unwind the winch.

It would appear that Billsboat's "custom" winch only has the DESIGNED unwind feature available, due to an issue in the PTO unit. Apparently someone previously decided to wrap the cable backwards, thus "converting" the winch to WIND with the cab lever in the intended UNWIND position. This would provide three speeds of WIND capability, making the best of the situation with the problem PTO unit.

There is no possible way to reverse any gears in the PTO unit to cause this malfunction. If the reverse idler gear was missing or out of position, nothing would happen with the cab lever in the forward position, which is the symptom described by Billsboat.

Turning the worm shaft end-for-end wouldn't change anything. The worm is either a right hand or left hand thread, and turning it around doesn't change its gender.
 
73FJ40 said:
My guess is that Billsboat's PTO unit is missing the reverse idler gear, or, the spacer is missing and the gear has moved out of alignment, or some other malady with the reverse idler gear train. I pointed this out back in my post #121, in red, hoping that would alert someone to the potential issue. Oh, well. :bang:

My post above, #121, refers to Billboat's picture in post #118. I refer to the lever IN THAT PICTURE, which is attached to the back of the PTO unit. Pushing THAT lever backward (WHICH IS THE EQUIVALENT OF MOVING THE LEVER IN THE CAB FORWARD) is DESIGNED to engage the output gear to the reverse idler gear which is driven by the smaller input gear. This is the intended WIND position of the lever in the cab.

Moving the cab lever to the rear, pulls the PTO unit lever forward, which is designed to engage the output gear to the large input gear, which is the intended UNWIND position of the cab lever.

Since the PTO unit is driven by the output shaft of the transmission, WIND and UNWIND have three speeds, governed by what gear the transmission is in. By the same token, for instance, if you shift the transmission into reverse with the cab lever in the WIND (forward) position, you will effectively unwind the winch.

It would appear that Billsboat's "custom" winch only has the DESIGNED unwind feature available, due to an issue in the PTO unit. Apparently someone previously decided to wrap the cable backwards, thus "converting" the winch to WIND with the cab lever in the intended UNWIND position. This would provide three speeds of WIND capability, making the best of the situation with the problem PTO unit.

There is no possible way to reverse any gears in the PTO unit to cause this malfunction. If the reverse idler gear was missing or out of position, nothing would happen with the cab lever in the forward position, which is the symptom described by Billsboat.

Turning the worm shaft end-for-end wouldn't change anything. The worm is either a right hand or left hand thread, and turning it around doesn't change its gender.
Click to expand...
Thanks for all of your great information! So after reading your write up I went out to re check my pto gear box to make sure I had the linkage adjusted right. It is. I did notice when pushing the in cab lever forward it has a different feel than when pulling it back. Given what you’ve said it sounds like I’ll need to pull that gear box. Any idea on what service manual would cover this repair? Again, thanks. You time is appreciated!
 
73FJ40 said:
@Billsboat
Click to expand...

Ask and @73FJ40 shall deliver. I am glad he knows because I don't know crap about the PTO winches but have always wanted to play with one to see how well it functions. Love the classic looks of them.
 
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