Prado head update

Discussion in 'Diesel Tech / 24 volts' started by 2rivers, Oct 31, 2005.

  1. 2rivers

    2rivers

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    Well, first off its running again, and quite strong for a 2.4. ANyways, Im not out of the clear yet, totally opposite actually. After the 3L head swap, on startups this thing has super rough idle and smokes white/blue to the point where I am embrassed and afraid of getting a ticket from the enviro police! Seriously!! Yuo may remember when it overheated it was roasted well - cooking hot. When we had the head off bores, and piston tops *looked* OK.

    I did check the glowplugs and they are getting juice. I will pull them this weekend and do continuity test.

    I am appealling to the collective knowledge on this board.

    Why the crazy smoke? Others have done this swap with same results, same motor, some in England, some in Aus etc. with no or very few solid answers. Rough idle for a minute/30 sec and lots of whiteish smoke. ?

    I was talking to a buddy and he suggested the turbo seals might have got fried if there was low coolant being near the top of the motor and tings got very hot. This makes sense. BUT when I get up to temp - it runs like a dream. Lots of power, little smoke (maybe a bit o black on hard accel), great fuel consump, smooth etc. Wouldnt I be spewing huge coulds of smoke when hot if turbo seals were gone? This stratup routine HAS to change.

    I will pull the turbo inlet off ASAP to check for (hopefully) gobs of oil!! At least it would be a known straight forward fix (albeit $$). But I would much rather have that than mystery...

    What other things could I check?

    What does a leaky injector do on start up? Could this be? HOw to check individually can I do this without full removal?

    Injector pump/EFI module? No ideas here....just throwing it out (well not really yet :) ) Althoug Im thinking I could use a manual pump and ditch the elecs.

    HOw about air in fuel lines somehow overnight?

    Any chance the machine shop buggered up valve re-grind or valve stems?

    Lastly, dreaded head off again to check for water, but I dont think this is so becasue Im not using/loosing coolant anymore!! Hooray! And the colour of smoke is blue/white and not steam.

    Even going shopping for 2 hrs in -2C it puffed quite a bit more than it should for sure. The truck ran well with no smoke and pretty smooth cold startup idle before the head fiasco.

    Well, a bit of a rant sorry. Guess I should go and do some more diggin around before I whine away on the board.
    cheers,
    Johnny
     
  2. crushers

    crushers post ho

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    how about a swap to manual glow plugs and a push button glow?

    i doubt that the seals in the turbo are gone since usually once that happens the smoke is bad all the time, the heavier the acceleration the more smoke out the back side.

    sounds like unburnt fuel to me, try plugging the truck in and see if the problem is temporarily solved, if so then you know it is the glow system acting up.

    i have not been down that road so i am just guessing.

    cheers and good luck.
     
  3. 2rivers

    2rivers

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    thanks Wayne. Im just about to head into the shop with my test light. I really hope to find some burnt out plugs. Really I hope others with early Prados do not have this problem - very frustrating.

    Wayne can I ask what you plan to use as heater for the 2l-te? Im going to go with a panheater and possibly a block heater, although the NAPA one for the 2L does not seem to fit from what I have read and Im not too keen on punching out a frost plug without something to fit back! I think one for a 3B might be the ticket but have to do more homework. ideas?

    A tad worreid to run a inline or lower rad hose like my other trucks due to my coolant headaches to date.

    PLEASE guys check your coolant level at the rad cap on the thermostat bypass NOT THE EXPANSION TANK like I did....and check your coolant often. By the way, my temp needle sits at 1/2 or below now. Also check fan clutch operation (carefully with wrapped up newspaper).

    cheers,
    johnny
    the Prado guinee pig
     
  4. light_duty

    light_duty

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    Hey Johnny,

    Where did you end up sourcing your head and gasket kit? Just curious, as I fully expect to head down this road myself sooner or later.

    Cheers,
    Robin
     
  5. 2rivers

    2rivers

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    Hi Robin,

    I sure hope you dont have to, but maybe best to put an emergency fund aside! I ordered direct from Allhead in Australia. Although 4 Wheel Auto is great guys to deal with, I felt that I should get the "complete package" ie. everything I needed all at once all agskets, all bearngs the upgraded water pump, bleed kit, thermostat etc lump sum, from a source who has seen lots of these. Arrived in a week to my door! Weighed 35 kilos! not bad!! I dealt with MArk Selbst at Allhead. I think 4Wheel now has this stuff in stock so give them a call...

    good luck with your new arrival! They really are quite a cool truck, the 3rd row seats are pretty neat and suprisingly functional (for limber kids anyways). I have always liked the 70 series dash, windshield/visibility and driver positioning now that I have a family the 4 doors is way better than the 74 for us, although there is the HZJ77 :cool: Dont think Id even get 1/2 of one of those for what I paid for the Prado even with new head!!
    chhers,
    johnny
     
  6. crushers

    crushers post ho

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    i use the lower rad hose heater, it causes no restrictions and is easy to install...
    cheers
     
  7. brownbear

    brownbear Mod in Hibernation Moderator

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    This is would be the best choice. I had to do that on my 3b. world of a difference.

    Also something to note. You might be getting juice but are you glowing? got an infared temp gauge? the kind you point at things? Call russ at Snap on, he would love to show you how it works by trying in on a plug.


    ALso something to think about, You used 2l-t plugs, I wounder if in the head there could be a length difference between the 2l-t plgs and a 3l plug. Maybe you are not getting the heat where it needs to be.

    But first thing first, go Manual on the plugs, heat for 30 seconds. Your smoke show should end.

    I used to smoke for a good minute before I went manual. Especailly in the temps we are getting here now.

    Good luck.....
     
  8. 2rivers

    2rivers

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    Ya, thanks Brownbear I was thinking that too about the plugs but it is same part# for 2L to 3L inclusive. The manual overide might be justthe ticket. I was thinking also that the battery in it may be a bit low on cranking amps - could this affect the GP temps? Also I did prime the top of the fuel filter housing (push the pump knob thing a few pumps) this am. It did feel hard, but I got 2 sorta pushes on it. Strarted pretty well, (tolerable smoke) at -4C. Then I let it idle and it started to smoke heavy white blue after 1 min or so and then until I get to temp! crazy thing....more details soon.

    Also BB Stuart and I were coming over to have a look at yer project Friday I think. Be nice to meet in person.
    cheers,
    johnny
     
  9. Greg_B

    Greg_B

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    Ahhh, yes; the Wilson switch. :D

    Sounds like unburnt fuel as Wayne suggests. The only way to find out if it is that, and not oil is to drive it for a while and see what consumption looks like, which it seems you are doing.

    Interesting though that you have heard others who have put the 3L on the 2LT have had the same smoking issue? I am assuming it is not all, but some?

    Would your compression have changed much?

    gb
     
  10. light_duty

    light_duty

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    Looking at this issue, I found this thread on an australia Surf forum. http://toyotasurf.asn.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7501&highlight=2lte

    Looks like there are a few different gaskets available for each engine (2L-T and 3L). The bore is the same on each, but gasket thickness is not. But I would hope that Allhead would know you're swapping out a 2L-TE head and supply the appropriate gasket...?

    Robin
     
  11. crushers

    crushers post ho

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    BTW, i saw your truck yesterday when i was picking up the Suzuki Carry truck. it was too far away to tell much but at least it is there...
    cheers
     
  12. light_duty

    light_duty

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    Geez, I can hardly stand it! This truck has consumed my every waking minute for the past month (just ask my wife!). Monday is the day to find out whether I got hosed or not, and I'm pretty anxious about it. I just keep telling myself that it's just a piece of machinery, and that any problems can be fixed. Either way, I'll have a Land Cruiser in my driveway, which makes me a happy man.

    Robin
     
  13. 2rivers

    2rivers

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    That is a good wy to look at it Robin. A Prado is a very attractive looking truck I think, and quite capable (as Wayne has demonstrated), and the head problem can be fixed with a few $1000. INterestingly my bro in law has a Surf with 2l-te and it had 2 extra cooling fans and a few other cooling mods. He is wondering if it has a new(er) head but hasnt had it long enough to find out.

    Anyways, Allhead asked me which gasket I needed. I looked at the old one, and there was a B stamp on it. I have read others with surfs in Aus had a D gasket I think. I havent put the pistons into the valves, and it runs with gobs of power for a 2.4 - just super smoky on start. I do wonder though about Gregs comment about compression and was hoping for some clarification. Becasue it got hot were you referring to some ring damage? Wouldnt it run like a real bag of cr@p if so? I do plan on doing a comp test - but I need to make a test unit. DO you use an old glowplug for the base drilled out?? I should read some archives on this. Or maybe just buy one somewhere? It is a handy thing to have around...

    Troubleshooting weekend.

    :beer:
     
  14. crushers

    crushers post ho

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    just to let you know the 2L-TE is a smokey bugger at start up as well.
    a new head is $825, a factory head rebuild kit gasket set is $150 and to transfer all the parts over with the valves reground is $200 and labour at a reputable shop is $450. a brand new head installed is around $1625. you can save a bit by doing your own work.

    a good pyro and a decent larger exhaust is cheaper yet...

    cheers
     
  15. crushers

    crushers post ho

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    just go buy the proper adapter
     
  16. brownbear

    brownbear Mod in Hibernation Moderator

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    ya I was talking to Stuart, we were going to meet and have a beer. I have just been swamped and Stuart got busy too.

    I'll talk to stuart and make a plan. Maybe tomorrow, eh?

    You can see my wreak and we can go to the alpenhorn. Maybe monday?
     
  17. PJHunter

    PJHunter

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    I'm just curious.... do the 2.4 and 3.0's have the same bottom end then? And, if they do, do they share the same bottom end as the 1KZT engine that's in the later 70 series and 1st model Prado's?
     
  18. harveya

    harveya

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    The 2.4 non EFI and 3L block is pretty much identical as far as I am aware. Crankshaft is different in the 2LTE (EFI one).

    The block and everything else for that matter is different in the 1KZT and 1KZTE. Externally it is very different and The crank and all the internals are different.

    2rivers.

    It might be worth checking the compression on it and working out teh compression ratio however too much compression (which is possible due to the 3L being no turbo) would normall cause the fuel to burn better (until your engine detonated itself).

    To me the white smoke points to one of two things.

    1. Water in the system - are you sure you got the head gasket on correct - the 2L engine is an absolute Bu**er to get right and it is quite possible to get the gasket not sitting correct. As long as all the bolts went in finger tight all the way then you should be OK.

    2. Glow plugs not working correct. Have you got the bus bar correct on them. Also on the 2LTE there are a lot of small vacuum pipes that you need to get right otherwise the engine will run like a dog. The EFI ECU takes quite a lot of info from a lot of sensors. On the thermostat housing there are two water temp sensors - one does the electric auxiliary fan and one does the guage as well as feeding engine temp to the ECU.

    You may want to also get the ECU remapped if you can find someone to do it. It's a finicky little pesky computer that does like everything to be correct otherwise it will overfuel or underfuel.

    Other thing to check is the peak fuel rate on the pump. You may be overfuelling.
     
  19. 2rivers

    2rivers

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    Much appreciated Andy. Cheers from Canada! Good tips ...Although not sure what you mean by ECU remapped. I know the truck is not burning/loosing coolant...It just might be overfuelling on startup why I dont know. It runs flawlessly when warm. I would like to try the Wilson switch but at $20 some odd bucks a piece for glow plugs I dont want to start frying a bunch - typically do you bypass the secondary relay - the lower volage one to avoid this right? REally scratching my head here folks. The compression should not change to much if any going to a 3L head, otherwise Toyota would not be selling this part as a replacment.....???

    ????
    ?
    johnny
     
  20. harveya

    harveya

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    What I mean by getti the ECU remapped is either get a chip (don't think one is available) or find somewhere that can reprogram the ECU (again not sure if this is possible). I think that the problem is that the ECU thinks the engine needs more fuel than it does - could be due to a difference in combustion characteristics on the 3L head. You may also improve the situation with propane or nox injection when cold which will effectively give better burn. It seems the problem is due to engine temp which is why I mentioned the engine temp sender to the ECU. If you can affect the burn when cold to overcome the ECU telling the pump to provide more fuel than is required then you may be able to at least improve the situation.
     
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