Plumbing: Propane or MAPP? (1 Viewer)

[e9999]

as is by now painfully obvious I will have to do some plumbing...

Also painfully, I dropped my propane torch some time back and the nozzle broke clean off.

Now, that I have to get another one, I'm wondering whether I should go MAPP instead. It's reportedly hotter but the gas and hardware is more expensive.

So, for a non-pro (I may do copper tubing once every 5 years), which is best? Does it make a big difference in the quality of the sweated joints (never had a problem with propane though)? Or more likely to burn things up?

Maybe can do more stuff (brazing?) with MAPP which could come in handy?



(interestingly, my main use for my propane torch over the years has been to light campfires... works great, especially when things are wet. Not to mention creme brule'e and sugared bananas... mmm.... )


added: surprisingly , I just saw that the flame temp in air is only a bit more for MAPP and propylene than for propane: 3600 vs 3450F or so. Seems like not much difference at all. And the Heating Value is a tad lower for propylene than for propane.

 

[bigndn]

Get one of those self igniting nozzles.

 

[splitshot]

Propane works fine for the smaller 1/2 to 3/4 fittings. I switched over to Mapp because occationally we deal with 1-1/2 to 2" sweats in breezy conditions.

 

[fj40charles]

I use MAPP gas with the torch on a hose.

http://www.google.com/products/cata...ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ8wIwAA#ps-sellers

I hate the ones where the torch mounts on the tank. Invert the tank and the flame changes.

I also have a small Acetylene tank with a nice small torch. This is what I use most of the time.

 

[-Spike-]

I love me some MAPP, but I never used propane enough to get a feel for it. For as often as you're going to use it, I'd go with whatever's cheaper, with emphasis on whichever gas is cheaper. If they're relatively similar in price, more power is always better. I have no issues with the tank-mounted nozzle, but I'm not an artist- I just need to get the joint hot as quickly as possible to avoid collateral damage. If I had to replace mine, I'd get another of the same. It stores easy and no hoses to tangle/trip over/damage/etc. I can see the attraction of the remote tank, but not enough to get me to switch.

 

[splitshot]

Google Turbo Torch, great inexpensive screw-on that works well with both.

 

[Rambrush]

I would go with a MAPP gas unit they are not that expensive. They have other benefits from soldering heavy lug cables and roasting hot dogs.

 

[haystax]

MAPP w/ hose - can't believe I wasted so much time with propane. It's nice to be able to use the torch in tight spots or upside down.

 

[e9999]

I do have a hose that I use for lanterns and stoves etc that would work with the torch somehow if need to improvise a bit. Probably much less flexible though.


Anyway, I did a bunch of 3/4" sweated fittings yesterday with propane. Worked fine but does take quite a bit of time to get the fitting hot enough. Like 30 secs or so maybe. Which allows the rest of the pipe to get fairly hot. I do the wet rag thing to protect other joints, but still I don't like it. Maybe the MAPP would help with that? How fast does it take you to get a 3/4" hot enough?

I'm thinking I'll get a torch that can do both MAPP and propane like the Benzo 4000 (with trigger igniter - nice to have) about $35. Have one can of Propylene to play with and see the difference, but probably stick with propane most of the time since it's so much cheaper.

Never done any brazing. Might try that some day. How does that work with MAPP or do you need to mix with O2 for that to really work?

 

[Rambrush]

yes mapp gas gets it hot fast wicks up the solder quickly. still use a wet rag to cool

 

[fj40charles]

There are times when you have to sweat or melt the solder in pipe that is partially full of water. If you have done any pipe repairs, you'll know what I'm talking about. Yes, I know about the bread trick.

You will end up taking your torch and running it full blast to try to heat up the solder. Good luck using propane for this one.

 

[-Spike-]

If there's water in the pipe, I don't care if you're using oxy/acetelyne, you ain't soldering it.

 

[LukeZero]

If there's water in the pipe, I don't care if you're using oxy/acetelyne, you ain't soldering it.

That's what they make ProPress for!

 

[e9999]

OK, so I take it from the above that despite the small difference in temperature on paper, MAPP etc does really do stuff that propane can't. Good to know.

So if you don't think a novice will melt holes in everything with it, I'll try it.

 

[Rambrush]

it is very difficult to melt holes in copper pipe, but anythings possible.

 

[e9999]

well, I used a thin aluminium sheet from flashing or a gutter or something like that to protect the valves, wall etc, and I managed to burn a hole through that with propane when I was sweating a fitting an inch from the wall... admittedly it was very thin, though, like a thick paper sheet, but I didn't think it would go through.

 

[fj40charles]

well, I used a thin aluminium sheet from flashing or a gutter or something like that to protect the valves, wall etc, and I managed to burn a hole through that with propane when I was sweating a fitting an inch from the wall... admittedly it was very thin, though, like a thick paper sheet, but I didn't think it would go through.

This is the perfect example why you need a small flame of the turbo torch or a GOSS brand torch.
The small flame cone will allow you to control the flame and direct it. Try to sweat some 1/4" copper tubing with a regular tank mounted propane torch.

 

[e9999]

This is the perfect example why you need a small flame of the turbo torch or a GOSS brand torch.
The small flame cone will allow you to control the flame and direct it. Try to sweat some 1/4" copper tubing with a regular tank mounted propane torch.

I saw a good price Bernzomatic TS4000 locally that works with both MAPP and propane. Produces a swirling flame. Does that one have a good enough flame you think?

added: just saw that the 4000 does not have an adjustable flame level. Just on / off. Gotta go to the 7000 for full flame control. Does not seem like a big deal. Is it? Already have some control in choosing propane or MAPP.

 

[e9999]

OK, I splurged.

I got the best one I found locally, the Bernz TS8000.

First: wow! that thing is heavy duty and just plain heavy... big chunk of metal. Adjustable flow rate nice to have.

Second: Wow Wow! Never used a good torch before. Stunned. Especially the one hand function. One click of the trigger it's on. Release, it's off. Major savings in gas AND I now realize even better how dangerous it was to have the torch on all the time before. That was a fire waiting to happen. Much much safer to have full one-handed control of the torch. Turn it on aimed at the pipe. Turn it off when hot enough. No wide swings spewing flames everywhere. No temptation to stand the torch upright while on when finishing things off etc.



Finally: Wow Wow Wow!

They are not lying when they say that thing is faster. I had just used what I thought was a good torch (not a $15 special). This is definitely faster. The flame is pretty big though, it's no pencil point.


Old torch: typical 3/4" fitting sweating, about 30secs (estimated), could have been 25 or 35 not sure, with propane.

TS8000 propane: 17s for sweating in. 11 s for taking off

compare 17 to 25+. Good. Flame seems bigger. Tip hole is bigger. Swirling flame. Certainly feels much faster.

so to compare with MAPP now I did the same exact thing now with propylene (similar to MAPP), same pipe, elbow, length, wet rag, flux, solder

TS8000 propylene: 10 s for sweating in. 6 secs for taking off.

Now, this was only 1 time, quick fast test so hardly foolproof. But seems like about 50% faster with Propylene. Much faster than the paper temps suggest, indeed as the pros above suggested.

Very glad indeed I got the torch. I don't think the MAPP part was the main thing as far as my being thrilled, though. It's nice to have for sure but I think propane would be just fine for most straightforward sweating in. But good to have MAPP in reserve. But the quality and function of the tool is very much worth the $$ and already gets half the way to MAPP speed even with propane when compared to a cheap torch.

 

[Rambrush]

Congrats on a fine purchase.

Yes it is amazing what you can do with better equipment.