Permit Hell (1 Viewer)

[GWcruiser]

I was interested in going on a posted run, but found I needed a special permit... not good late on a Friday when teh run is that Sunday. But it got me thinking about all the licenses, permits, and fee tags a person needs here in Arizona...

I can't go because I don't have my hall pass from the USFS... I really thought Federal Land was open for public use ?

It really seems an Arizonan needs the the USFS Access permit you must dangle off your mirror, several USFS Special Use permits (like boggs bottom or whatever this last one is I applied for), the Arizona Trust Lands permit, the Maricopa Special Use Day Pass permits if you park in any developed area (including using an outhouse there-in), and the OHV sticker for your license plate if you take your rig off a paved road.

Wow - this region is really really sad when it comes to permits. Of course, last place I lived they simply bulldozed a rubble pile and a few trees and closed the roads so people wouldn't go in and deface everything they came across.

Anyone else think all these permit systems are a bit excessive?

 

[DSRTRDR]

they do respond within a day - week day that is

OHV stickers are required for ATVs, not trucks or real 4x4s - so no worry about those for us in trucks

and there's the Tonto Pass, for when you park and go recreate in the Tonto National Forest while not in your vehicle - not applicable to Bulldog Canyon, though

State Trust land permits are even more cumbersome

all of that said, from my personal perspective: I'd rather there is a permit process than the trail be closed indefinitely - and I hope they open up more trails really soon, even if there may be permits attached

last resort for getting the Bulldog permit in person is to show up at the Ranger station, but they are not open on Sundays

Anyone else think all these permit systems are a bit excessive?

have you ever been out on the access roads to Sycamore or Sugarloaf ?

look at the shooting galleries out there and all their trash . . . tell me about your feelings on access permits after that . . .

 

[GWcruiser]

have you ever been out on the access roads to Sycamore or Sugarloaf ? look at the shooting galleries out there and all their trash . . . tell me about your feelings on access permits after that . . .

I've been out in a few places and was pretty distressed over the filth that is around popular shooting ranges. South of Whitetanks was the first I encountered. But seems these shooters don't need all these permits so the system doesn't even slow them down.


As for OHV tags, why are jeeps and range rovers shown in the images of the OHV Brochure designating which vehicles need tags? The only "out" would be "primarily off of highway use" - but some of us have rigs that are just that.

Off-Highway Vehicle (OHV): A motorized vehicle when operated primarily off of highways on land, water, snow, ice or other natural terrain or on a combination of land, water, snow, ice or other natural terrain. Includes a two-wheel, three-wheel or four-wheel vehicle, motorcycle, four-wheel drive vehicle, dune buggy, amphibious vehicle, ground effects or air cushion vehicle, and any other means of land transportation deriving motive power from a source other than muscle or wind.​

 

[GWcruiser]

And let me be clear that I don't mind permits. But how would a casual person out for a day know about needing a permit for a small section of national forest that happens to have roads that show up on a map and look interesting?? I can hear the ranger now: "Ignorance is no excuse!"

 

[Chuy]

I've been out in a few places and was pretty distressed over the filth that is around popular shooting ranges. South of Whitetanks was the first I encountered. But seems these shooters don't need all these permits so the system doesn't even slow them down.


As for OHV tags, why are jeeps and range rovers shown in the images of the OHV Brochure designating which vehicles need tags?

Give me the area, I have planned a clean up of the white tanks in February for Luke AFB. I can talk to the Maricopa park manager and Regional manager about the issues. I will also speak to the Clint Hickman the Maricopa county supervisor on the issue. He is very involved with concerns in the area. GW shoot me a PM and lets chat about these issues I am involved in these areas and would like to up channel these concerns for CSC.

 

[Rudster]

Weekday is the key to getting permit in a timely manner. I put in for mine on Thursday and within 2 hours had an email with permit

 

[re_guderian]

There are pretty valid reasons for each, and you've hit on a few. State Trust lands aren't meant primarily for the recreating pleasure of the citizens, they were granted as a source of revenue for the state. There are TONS of areas available for use without permit. It is typically overuse, misuse, and abuse that lead to permitting.
http://www.azland.gov/

 

[inkpot]

Tonto Recreation Permit is for IMPROVED AREAS, like structured camp grounds and areas that have civil niceties like toilets and dumpsters. Not needed elsewhere. State Trust Land Permit is for just that, Land that is owned by the state of Arizona, not federal land. It is periodically sold off for financing things like education and prisons. Often shown on maps as blue shaded areas. The vast majority of federally owned land, managed by the Forest Service and/or the Bureau of Land Management, requires NO permits. Arizona State OHV sticker program is for motorized vehicles under 1800 pounds. I don't think any Land Cruiser would qualify. John

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Tonto Recreation Permit is for IMPROVED AREAS, like structured camp grounds and areas that have civil niceties like toilets and dumpsters. Not needed elsewhere. State Trust Land Permit is for just that, Land that is owned by the state of Arizona, not federal land. It is periodically sold off for financing things like education and prisons. Often shown on maps as blue shaded areas. The vast majority of federally owned land, managed by the Forest Service and/or the Bureau of Land Management, requires NO permits. Arizona State OHV sticker program is for If your vehicle is designed by the manufacturer primarily for travel over unimproved terrain and has an unladen weight of 1,800 pounds or less, you must purchase the OHV Decal. s. I don't think any Land Cruiser would qualify. John

I added an important part you left out
My BMW motorcycle does not require an OHV sticker. At least that is what was determined at a TRAL meeting.

You are also allowed to us the restroom without a Tonto pass. See below from the Tonto web site

Are there exceptions to the need for a Tonto Pass?

You will not need a pass when simply traveling through the forest or when stopping for activities incidental to through travel (stretch break, photo-opportunity, restroom use, stopping for information at ranger stations, visitor centers and other Forest Service offices, etc.). Volunteers and educational institutions, such as schools that bring children to the forest for an outing, are also exempt when issued an administrative pass.

 

[Kurtis]

The permit system seems to be working quite well. I for one don't mind the hassle since it seems to keep the trash out. When I'm in AZ I spend a lot of time on my dirtbike and Sycamore is one of my favorite places but the dirtbags have really over taken that place.

The shooters are out of control and the utv owners aren't far behind.

There is something about a small fee that really keeps the worst type of people out of an area.

They can pay 200$ a month for their UTV, 500$ a month for their truck so they can pull the UTV and 200-300$ on alchohol so they can forget all of their horrible decisions and leave the trash in the desert. All on 40-50k a year but a 10-20$ fee will keep them from using an area. Its amazing.

 

[Azca]

There are pretty valid reasons for each, and you've hit on a few. State Trust lands aren't meant primarily for the recreating pleasure of the citizens, they were granted as a source of revenue for the state. There are TONS of areas available for use without permit. It is typically overuse, misuse, and abuse that lead to permitting.
http://www.azland.gov/

Remember a valid hunting license is also considered a permit on state trust land, provided your are hunting. That said I am always hunting, what I have no idea... Isn't bigfoot considered a non-game animal???

 

[randrsn]

Remember a valid hunting license is also considered a permit on state trust land, provided your are hunting. That said I am always hunting, what I have no idea... Isn't bigfoot considered a non-game animal???

Coyotes are always in season.

 

[Saddletramp]

Cottontail rabbits are always good to eat but I'm not a very good hunter. If asked that is what I'm going to say.

 

[LongDuck]

The "rabbits" story might just work, but I read something about only eating them in months that end in "R" to avoid rabbit fever. Purchase of a resident hunt and fish license -even if you don't use it - supports all those efforts around the state, as well. Might be worth throwing a fishing pole in the LandCruiser and asking where the lake can be found if stopped!

 

[GWcruiser]

When are hoppers in season? And, I never use a fishing pole, I tie the worm onto any nearby found string or grass blade - it's how I learned to fish watching the survival show on TV. Hey - were talking stories here, right? So may as well make it funny enough the ranger laughs and let's you go.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

The "rabbits" story might just work, but I read something about only eating them in months that end in "R" to avoid rabbit fever. Purchase of a resident hunt and fish license -even if you don't use it - supports all those efforts around the state, as well. Might be worth throwing a fishing pole in the LandCruiser and asking where the lake can be found if stopped!

^THIS^

Also purchase a Tonto Annual permit for the same reasons. If you find it difficult to find the time to donate to TRAL or the Arizona Off_Highway Vehicle Ambassador Program it a great way to help fund Tonto Ranger Districts to take care of the land we most regularly frequent.

 

[murf]

If you find it difficult to find the time to donate to TRAL or the Arizona Off_Highway Vehicle Ambassador Program it a great way to help fund Tonto Ranger Districts to take care of the land we most regularly frequent.

excellent point!

 

[GWcruiser]

I purchased an $8 day pass to go in and have a single beer with a friend that was camping at Bartlett Lake. I even took my own chair and beer. Buying that day pass got to me... was I really using the facility in any meaningful way? The campground had a dumpster, but didn't even have toilets that I could find.

I have the Arizona Trust Land permit - and I think it is good for other "open" state land, too. I think I have some other permit to allow me access somewhere else, but can't locate it or the receipt (maybe it was the state land permit to go into Leslie Gulch). Oh, add the two permits for sno-park and off-road parking (those are probably Washington State). And my National Park, Monument, and Federal Lands annual pass. I now have the Bogsbottom permit (kudos - they got it to me rather quickly - same business day).

Anyway - you'd think with a dozen different agencies all requiring their own permits there was a way to 1) FIND and 2) CONSOLIDATE where you needed to go to get permits for the various areas a person wants to visit.

I'm a bit worried that if I randomly pick a place to drive to somewhere on my AZ topo maps, that I probably need to plan a week or three out to check with every federal, state, county and even local agency to verify I can get there without a handful of permits. For example, there's a museum down near Yuma, all dirt roads to it (definitely OHV use crossing several types of land), and a few side roads that look interesting that I would probably try to find where they lead. But with all the permit requirements - I need to check with about four agencies unless my bad color vision is misleading me - seems to take some of the spontaneity out of the sport.



Rant complete ...

 

[Azca]

I purchased an $8 day pass to go in and have a single beer with a friend that was camping at Bartlett Lake. I even took my own chair and beer. Buying that day pass got to me... was I really using the facility in any meaningful way? The campground had a dumpster, but didn't even have toilets that I could find.

I have the Arizona Trust Land permit - and I think it is good for other "open" state land, too. I think I have some other permit to allow me access somewhere else, but can't locate it or the receipt (maybe it was the state land permit to go into Leslie Gulch). Oh, add the two permits for sno-park and off-road parking (those are probably Washington State). And my National Park, Monument, and Federal Lands annual pass. I now have the Bogsbottom permit (kudos - they got it to me rather quickly - same business day).

Anyway - you'd think with a dozen different agencies all requiring their own permits there was a way to 1) FIND and 2) CONSOLIDATE where you needed to go to get permits for the various areas a person wants to visit.

I'm a bit worried that if I randomly pick a place to drive to somewhere on my AZ topo maps, that I probably need to plan a week or three out to check with every federal, state, county and even local agency to verify I can get there without a handful of permits. For example, there's a museum down near Yuma, all dirt roads to it (definitely OHV use crossing several types of land), and a few side roads that look interesting that I would probably try to find where they lead. But with all the permit requirements - I need to check with about four agencies unless my bad color vision is misleading me - seems to take some of the spontaneity out of the sport.

Ahem... This is GOVERNMENT at work, do you REALLY think they would do something that made sense??? Besides, this way they can collect much more revenue, while saying they are looking out for OUR best interests, to pay for $100,000 outhouses in Alaska and squirrel bridges in Tucson....

 

[Azca]

Cottontail rabbits are always good to eat but I'm not a very good hunter. If asked that is what I'm going to say.

Hijack alert!

Oh man! Give the bunnies a break! I always pass on the cottontails, the way I look at it EVERYTHING is trying to eat them poor critters, I like to give em a break. That said, and it sounds strange, try jackrabbit! You need to crock pot em or use a pressure cooker but I can tell you they are GOOD eating! Plus it only takes a few of them, compared to bunnies, for a good meal.

The same reason I pass on kit fox in the desert when varmint calling, poor critters have everything picking on them. Last trip walked up to within 30 feet of one before he ambled off into the trees. Just for fun got a picture of him.