Patriot Act-- some info for you 35% NSFW

Discussion in 'Chit-Chat' started by PolterGeist, Jun 26, 2005.

  1. PolterGeist

    PolterGeist

    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Location:
    Harvard, IL USA
  2. IDave

    IDave

    Messages:
    7,167
    Media:
    1
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    27
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Location:
    McCall, ID
    I haven't found the Patriot Act in all that, but the opener on "Negotiating with Terrorists" is a real eye opener. Now, do we congratulate the Administration for finally admitting the world isn't black and white, or do we admonish them for not keeping to their mantra of "no negotiation"?
     
  3. Red Herring

    Red Herring

    Messages:
    774
    Media:
    22
    Albums:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2005
    Location:
    Victopia BC
    That must be more Liberal Media bullshit. Commie terrorist cuban chinese propaganda. Probably made in Canada. Im goin out to buy another gun...
     
  4. RavenTai

    RavenTai

    Messages:
    6,048
    Likes Received:
    45
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2003
    Location:
    Dixie co. Florida
    Thanks for the link. The patriot act is due to sunset shortly, hopefully it will go to its grave or be reworked into something more balanced.


    It is, but a broken clock is right twice a day.
     
  5. PolterGeist

    PolterGeist

    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Location:
    Harvard, IL USA
    Sorry IDave, I guess the link I used to download Penn & Teller was changed.

    If you go here http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/06/14.html#a3444 they should be the 4th one listed.

    Steve

    P.S.: Still working on gospel of Thomas-- you just would not believe the month I have been having.
     
  6. PolterGeist

    PolterGeist

    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Location:
    Harvard, IL USA
    "On September 11th, nineteen religious fanatics with a very well executed faith-based initiative killed thousands of our citizens and, scared the s*** out of the rest of us..."

    Doesn't get better than that!

    Steve
     
  7. dieseldog

    dieseldog She idles just fine . . .

    Messages:
    1,876
    Likes Received:
    7,201
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2005
    Location:
    Houston & BFE
    On September 11th, nineteen misogynist zenophobic anti-Semites executed a series of connected, premeditated, deliberate acts calculated to extract vengeance, fear, chaos, and submission to their unpalatable goal of world domination.

    Oh, and Penn & Teller can kiss my ass--along with Michael Moore.
     
  8. PolterGeist

    PolterGeist

    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Location:
    Harvard, IL USA

    Right-- like they said, a well executed faith based initative [like the ones the chrisitan religion has been commiting for 2000 years now] -- I love it when we can all agree!

    Steve
     
  9. freightdog

    freightdog

    Messages:
    861
    Likes Received:
    54
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2004
    Location:
    Lodge Grass, Montana
    Thanks Steve!

    I am always posting about the government that governs least governs best -

    I always use the old Ben Franklin quote on giving up liberty...

    I always say welcome to Amerika = police state...

    Everyone boos and says bullshit! Tells me to wake up get a life = :flipoff2:

    I never said we are not a great country - the greatest - all I said was don't let government infringe on our rights!

    Men and women died for those rights...

    Rant off...
     
  10. dieseldog

    dieseldog She idles just fine . . .

    Messages:
    1,876
    Likes Received:
    7,201
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2005
    Location:
    Houston & BFE
    PG, is there an echo in here? My reading comprehension of your quoting of P&T's fiction is just fine. I disagree with their (and apparently your) thesis. Such is their right to spew tripe to make a buck, and my right to disagree with it.

    There is no rationalizing what 19 dickheads did on September 11th, all at the behest of a chickenshit cave-dweller with a deluded sense of self. There is no humor in it. There is no money to be made in it. I get the fact that you're a Church-hater, that's cool. But remember this: it wasn't conservatives who started PC-speak.
     
  11. IDave

    IDave

    Messages:
    7,167
    Media:
    1
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    27
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Location:
    McCall, ID
    So what is it that you disagree with?

    That the Patriot Act was passed without being read by most of the people who voted on it?

    That many of the Provisions of the Patriot Act had been discussed and turned down individually for being too intrusive of individual rights?

    That it has already been used for broad investigations of private individuals in huge numbers, mostly for no gain?

    What happened to all of the Anti-big government, No interferance in my life, don't close the roads attitude folks that used to be here?

    The Patriot Act is intrusive Big Government/Big Brother like never before. Just because it was signed into law by someone you voted for makes it OK? This ain't Football, folks. You don't root for the team that does poorly just because they're the home team. This legislation affects us too dearly.
     
  12. Red Herring

    Red Herring

    Messages:
    774
    Media:
    22
    Albums:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2005
    Location:
    Victopia BC
     
  13. PolterGeist

    PolterGeist

    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Location:
    Harvard, IL USA

    Absolutely-- I just would like to know when republicans all the sudden became the "Government knows best" party. This is not the Republican party my parents were involved with, and certainly was not the one I was involved with. (I was there working for the party in the early 90s when it was hijacked)

    It's so hard to find a conservative republican these days....

    Anyway, as to the everyone booing and saying bullshit line, I know what you mean...

    And I did not leave the Republican party-- It left me. And it pains me to see what is going on in this country, but I'll still be here, trying to talk sense into people. It may not work, but at the end of the day, I'll know I tried.

    Steve
     
  14. freightdog

    freightdog

    Messages:
    861
    Likes Received:
    54
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2004
    Location:
    Lodge Grass, Montana
     
  15. dieseldog

    dieseldog She idles just fine . . .

    Messages:
    1,876
    Likes Received:
    7,201
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2005
    Location:
    Houston & BFE
    You presume too much when you presume that I necessarily agree with the Patriot Act. But be that as it may, P&T and Michael Moore are still asshats.

    One thing is certain, I agree with the Constitution. Not your explanation of it nor my explanation of it. The so-called Patriot Act is a law passed by the powers granted to the legislative branch. It was signed into law by the power granted to the executive branch. And, it remains fact that until: (1) it is held unconstitutional in whole or in part in a justiciable case brought before the Supreme Court (who would then be exercising its power granted to the judicial branch); (2) it is repealed by new legislative act; or (3) it sunsets under provisions contained within it, it remains the law of the land.
     
  16. freightdog

    freightdog

    Messages:
    861
    Likes Received:
    54
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2004
    Location:
    Lodge Grass, Montana
    To sum up =

    I love my country / Don't trust my government
     
  17. IDave

    IDave

    Messages:
    7,167
    Media:
    1
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    27
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Location:
    McCall, ID
    I'm glad to hear this. But you did say that you disagreed with their thesis. I could be mistaken, but I don't believe they proposed to say it was an unconstitutional law.
     
  18. dieseldog

    dieseldog She idles just fine . . .

    Messages:
    1,876
    Likes Received:
    7,201
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2005
    Location:
    Houston & BFE
    dave, don't jump hoops just yet. My responses are not based upon whether I agree with the law or whether I disagree. It's the law. And what I despise is the P&T and Michael Moores of this world looking down their respective liberal noses at those who might have the temerity to have a differing point of view.

    And frankly, whether it's Shinto, Buddhist, Taoist, Muslim, WASP, Catholic, Jewish, or whatever, it's despicible to cast a murderous conspiracy as a pleasant little euphimism such as a "faith-based initiative", as though that somehow draws a parallel to something which they feel is damning to conservatives in America. "Faithful" folks comes from all sides of the political spectrum--not just the right, even though you'd never suspect such from listening to agnostics or atheists. Faith is not a republican nor even conservative monopoly. Faith is just an incredibly easy target condescending humor frog smug asshats like those mentioned above. That doesn't make them right.

    Just remember, there's a lot of church/temple/shrine/mosque-goers from blue states as well as red states.
     
  19. IdahoDoug

    IdahoDoug

    Messages:
    8,864
    Likes Received:
    264
    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    If Micheal Moore is a patriot, then I'd like to hear your definition of a Patriot, Red Herring. I define a patriot as someone whose actions, words and the better part of their life are dedicated to the preservation and protection of the country in which they live. I may be the only person here who has personally met Micheal Moore (extremely briefly) and I can assure you he's an unpleasant fellow. That doesn't matter to me in evaluating what he is, however. I know lots of asshats that I'll share air with now and again as I think life's too short to be so judgemental.

    However, I think the Patriot Act was what our country needed and when it needed it. Were it in place prior to 911, there's good reason to believe that a pair of towers in New York would be standing and a lot of brave and capable Americans would still be alive today. Do we need to have it still? I'd argue that now that law enforcement has had it around for a few years, they should be able to provide real and tangible evidence of terror threats they've stopped (they can), terrorists they've arrested (they can), and parts of the Act they can now let go because enough changes have been made in US law enforcement to fill in the gaps without having "police state" powers (an overstatement IMHO). Will this happen? I kind of hope so.

    I have a few disagreements on the Ben Franklin quote as well. The one where "those who give up a few of their rights to protect liberties", etc. The world has changed significantly since then. Our liberties as individuals have expanded dramatically since these words were penned. Here's an example:

    Back then, to foment change you basically stood on a tree stump and spoke to a group of people whom you tried to convince of your position - say it's that you felt in 1770 you didn't think we should ally ourselves with the French. Well, you might get a few dozen people at that stump that day and maybe 3 would agree to write letters to their Senator. The next day, you get 3 more and so on. But the basic decision to agree or not agree with you came from a direct conversation with an audience member asking "What do the French want in return?" or "What makes you think the French have ulterior motives?" And you expect an answer or you walk away from the guy on the stump feeling reasonably certain that the guy is right. Or wrong. But you've had an opportunity to test someone.

    Today, if you have a desire to foment change, you have a vast array of communication and persuasion tools and importantly it's now customary that a position/persuasion is presented to people in a one way fashion. From the speaker to the audience and there's no opportunity for you to ask a question if something doesn't seem right. How many of you have watched an interview of someone you don't like and they say something that you're literally screaming at the TV for the interviewer to ask Jane Fonda how she can feel that way if the gun she sat on was shooting at American aircraft hours later? Instead, the interviewer keeps tossing softball questions to her because he's answering to the producer, who's answering to a media titan, who wants his network to make ad money.

    So getting back to my example 50,000 people get to listen to a local cable station broadcast of a guy who thinks we should get out of Puerto Rico. He gets to keep repeating his position, make accusations without offering actual documented proof, etc, etc. And only a handful of viewers get to ask the guy a call in question. So by default it ends up largely an airing of a guy's views on Puerto Rico (or whatever subject) and a teeny weeny little discourse or challenge (which the guy even gets to handle his way because the caller doesn't get to call back and say "hey, you blew off my question").

    The upshot of this is that we as individuals can now exercise the same right (Freedom of Speech) in a far, far more powerful way due to things that have happened since Ben Franklin's days. You could go through the other Rights and freedoms and find a similar pattern that our power and freedoms AS INDIVIDUALS have grown. People kill police officers today and get off free because their rights were infringed somewhere along the arrest/investigation line - just a single time. Our society protects individual rights today far more zealously than at any time in its history to the point an observer could easily make the case that we've swung the pendulum too far that way. Personally, that is exactly what I feel we have done, too.

    The Patriot Act, in a historical context (this means you have to consider where we've been over the entire course, not just the time since YOU have been alive) is an example of society expressing a need to check the swing of the pendulum because the freedoms themselves have opened a hole in our society's safety net that was being taken advantage of. And the hole was allowing enemies of our country (non patriots) to conduct massive attacks with weapons of massive destruction. Compared to Ben's day when a group could come from another country into the fledgling US and blow up a wooden two story building killing 18 people and 6 horses. A problem, yes, but in those days they didn't have weapons and techniques capable of killing literally millions of people floating around the globe. Or a society whose infrastructure could be hamstrung on large scales with a single event. Back then, you couldn't black out a New York borough with a single car bomb.

    It's worth pointing out that the US Government's primary job is to protect us from invasion, and that includes protecting our infrastructure, our food supply, our water supply, our power grid, our transportation network and all the other things like these that we as Americans consider our "way of life". Disagree with me on that? Go take a hatchet to the power and phone wires entering your home and tell me you're not benefiting from the Government protecting you on an hourly basis. You couldn't even post a reply to this thread without the Government having constructed an infrastructure right to your doorstep.

    Now, anyone who feels that this is not worth "giving up some freedoms" is likely to be someone whose life was not touched by the events of 911. I mean directly. Like you lost an Uncle, a Brother, a Sister, or you have two brothers who are pilots for American Airlines (like me). And I'll take a step into meanness and say these 'someones' are also apparently unable to empathize with this group of hundreds of thousands of Americans whose lives were directly impacted to the extent where they'd tolerate getting a phone call from the FBI one day because they bought 1200lbs of fertilizer that could make a sizeable bang. The phone call might take 2 minutes to explain that they're a farmer, but apparenty that type of intrusion is just too much for these 'someones'.

    I grant you there will be some innocent people whose lives will be impacted negatively by the Patriot Act. But all I see are a bunch of Liberal (people who feel by and large that anything goes and resent any limitations upon their lives as though a civilization can operate without rules and standards) politicians getting in front of cameras and saying 'The Patriot Act is bad for America' and not offering any actual facts. Where is the business man whose livelihood was shut down because he happened to have the same surname as an actual terrorist and the FBI arrested him accidentally? Where is the suburban father of 4 living in Chicago who has been dragged out of his bed at 3 am to answer questions about a recent trip to the Middle East and has not been seen for a week? Why don't we see dozens or hundreds of these events constantly splashed across the TV? Well, because this kind of misuse of the Patriot Act is simply not occurring.

    So, lets say this has happened a few times in the US. And believe me, we'd all know about it and I'm sure someone will provide a couple documented examples of it happening. Now lets offset these few incidents against what US law enforcement has been able to achieve due to the Patriot Act provisions. Well, hundreds (perhaps more) of people who'd like to have done harm to US citizens are languishing in jail, huge inroads into the structure of various terrorist organizations and the extent of their presence in America have been made, and terrorist events on US soil have been thwarted.

    Sound like a reasonable deal to you? Me too. Freedoms and liberties do not come without a price and this is one I'll gladly pay.

    DougM
     
  20. freightdog

    freightdog

    Messages:
    861
    Likes Received:
    54
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2004
    Location:
    Lodge Grass, Montana
    Wow Doug - that was some diatribe......well written - well thought out!

    I disagree - but your points should be thought about!

    Sorry I am not a liberal - I am a libertarian (worse than a liberal)

    I hate most cops and think the police state that we live in infringes on our rights more than you would care to believe. (Just my opinion)

    I think being a cop like being a teacher is an underpaid poorly respected job - we could change that...but my kids are educated to stear clear of cops. Far to much power in the hands of the uneducated. (again my opinion)

    No, Cruiser Dan I am not gonna call my "gang" as you referred to the last time I posited my thoughts on cops - Hopefully - I will take care of it myself - I do not believe in cops so I am not gonna go runnin to em...

    Yes, there are good cops - CalamariDog is a fine example....

    I am not willing to give up any rights because the internet and Tv expand freedom of speech -

    I want IH8MUD to be able to go on spewing Cruisers and my politics for many years to come...

    Our Country is great because we can express ourselves - Doug - take some responsibility on yourself and off the government - carry a gun - protect your own - and never let the liberal government in the name of conservative poiltics scare you into giving up any right!

    Rant Off -
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.