Occasional no-crank (1HZ) when warm, all lights go out (1 Viewer)

[JDM Journeys]

I've now had a few instances when turning the key (to crank) has resulted in all lights going out, and no crank at all. When I let the key go, everything goes back to its normal default, prestart condition. Feels like a short, but only as long as the key is held to crank position.

I suspect there is maybe some carbon tracking somewhere in the circuitry in the column? Has only happened when warm - one time the ignition was in accessory for a few minutes, and then turned forward to crank again, with no joy. Another time I was maneuvering a trailer, so truck was turned on and off three times or so over a few minutes.

(This is a 91 HZJ77 (24v) with 240k kms, newer batteries, no other starting issues, and thus far the issue has resolved itself after a few tries of removing the key and repeating the start.)

Any suggestions for usual suspects to disassemble and clean, before I dive in with my meter, some sandpaper, and dielectric grease? Or maybe I'm looking in the wrong place?

 

[solomrus]

look for a loose or corroded battery terminal first.

i usually find its a poor ground.

start there, see what you find.

 

[JDM Journeys]

look for a loose or corroded battery terminal first.

i usually find its a poor ground.

start there, see what you find.

Good call. Grounds are a good place to start, even if they aren't the problem - I haven't gone through them all yet, since I got this rig. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[solomrus]

simple things first.

then pull your beard out in frustration when you find butchered o2 sensor harness 6 hours later...

a-HEM. 8^)

--r

 

[RhinoRig]

Starter brushes is another possibility. Had that happen on two different kinds of engines.
Sounds like a short though. I had a melting of plastic in the main fuse box on the engine circuit once. Operated fine, usually. Didn’t discover the melt until swapping engine and fixing it solved the gremlin.

 

[OGBeno]

Ignition switch.

 

[JDM Journeys]

Ignition switch.

That was my feeling as well. Is there any point in attempting cleaning it, or is it generally a straight up replacement...? Haven't seen the innards of this particular one...

Edit: its relatively cheap, so unless it was a field fix (which I'm trying to keep from having to do eventually) I'm better off replacing methinks?

 

[JDM Journeys]

So I appear to be after 84450-60190 - but it seems to be discontinued. I'm seeing 84450-60120 as a possible replacement? And available...

Possibly superseded? For 50 bucks or so, its just as well to replace it if I'm going to the trouble of extracting it? The intermittent nature of the problem and its seemingly direct correlation to ignition key action makes me think Onur's crystal ball is accurate...

 

[joekatana]

I would check battery terminals and hot side of starter first , wouldn’t be the first one where on3 of the terminals is loose or creating a arc under load

 

[JDM Journeys]

Well put my new ignition switch yesterday (even though it's only done it once in the weeks I was waiting on the part) and of course today.. non-starter. Took about a dozen tries until finally it started like normal. Drove it home and was only able to replicate one no-start for every 8 or so tries. I hate intermittent problems.

Gonna start with cleaning cables...

 

[JDM Journeys]

I would check battery terminals and hot side of starter first , wouldn’t be the first one where on3 of the terminals is loose or creating a arc under load

So I checked a little closer tonight. Under the boot and tape of the starter cable (to batt pos), there was a little green showing. I disco'ed the wire from both sides, and ran a temporary cable with good lugs, from starter to batt+. So far I can't get it to not-start. Cable appears to be 82122-60100 but not in stock in my usual place... Megazip shows it (but it isn't clear if its good to go or not) but with 40 day shipping turnaround. Wow. May have to make my own in the meantime... also want to do some more investigating.

Is there anything else between the ignition swith and the starter? Relay maybe? Might have to start wading through the electrical schematics. On the plus side, I'm only an incline and a couple of strong buddies away from jumping it...

 

[JDM Journeys]

Made a new batt to starter cable. The oe one was kinda nasty. Also replaced the starter body to ground cable. So far it starts every time. We shall see?

I will order a new factory wire once supply chains get back to normal.

 

[JDM Journeys]

Not that any of the above repairs did anything but help, but an exceptionally hot day revealed the ultimate problem. As always, the simple solution was the issue... Starter is old and needs a good cleaning out at the bare minimum. Appears to have 30 years worth of dirt in there...

After cleaning I'll see if anything needs replacement. I'm assuming that there was enough grit to keep it from spinning when things were hot (thermal expansion)… which was why it was intermittent?

 

[OGBeno]

You most likely need starter contacts and plunger replaced at a minimum.

 

[JDM Journeys]

You most likely need starter contacts and plunger replaced at a minimum.

Yeah good point. I've already done both in the 100 and the 90. Seems to be the sacrificial anode in the Toyo starter.

I haven't even gotten into that part yet. Lol.