I had one that was in high range unable to be shifted into low range. Turned out the output shaft had been assembled with insufficient clearance between the components and the parts actually welded themselves together. Was a real SOB to get apart.
O R I O N
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Know that the ‘fix’ you initiated will only lead to more dramatic failure later. The forces at work inside the transfer case remain unabated and, like a pressure cooker, will relieve themselves in some other way.
I serviced an Orion with a popping problem that was forced to stay in gear by an external means. The pressure on the hi-lo shift collar remained unabated. The collar ground through over an 1/8” of the hi-lo shift fork in 8000 miles.
spotcruiser
Geezer
Know that the ‘fix’ you initiated will only lead to more dramatic failure later. The forces at work inside the transfer case remain unabated and, like a pressure cooker, will relieve themselves in some other way.
I serviced an Orion with a popping problem that was forced to stay in gear by an external means. The pressure on the hi-lo shift collar remained unabated. The collar ground through over an 1/8” of the hi-lo shift fork in 8000 miles.
Agreed. I rebuilt Max Balmain's Orion many years ago, after he bungeed it in Hi-2 to keep it from popping into neutral. In addition to the wear on the shift collar and fork, it had heat damage to the high speed and low speed gear bushings and output shaft and those had to be replaced as well. I don't recommend using a bungee cord to hold it in position, even lightly.
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Another case where a picture is worth a thousand words. From my Wall of Shame:
This is the kind of feedback that has prevented me from pulling the trigger on the Orion. I have to imagine this is surely a small fraction of all the Orion cases out there that are having issues - but it also seems like it could be inherant to the design. Is there a "correct" way to fix the popping-of-of-gear issue? Or better yet, keep it from occuring in the first place? Is there a proper way to pre-inspect components to assure they'll go together "right" with the proper clearances, or is it luck of the draw?
Its not the Orion cases that have issues, it's the clearance between the output shaft and the bushing in the high speed gear, it works into and hourglass shape(the bushing ) and upon hard deceleration the ocilation of the gear walks the shift collar off. New collar, new fork, new shift rail, wont help if you do not check the bushing/shaft clearance and condition, and the clearance for that is tighter than you would think.
So is this an issue with re-using the stock (XX,000mi) transfer case output shafts? Does simply buying a new output shaft (assuming clearance/tolerance on the new shaft are good) resolve it?
I feel like there have been reports of folks with new “everything” (gears, shafts, bearings) having similar issues...
Anytime you build/rebuild anything clearances should be checked but I’ve also rebuilt some stock cases that were downright floppy that stayed in gear.
I’m not saying you’re wrong - I’ve never built an Orion so I’m coming from a position of complete ignorance on that front, just trying to understand why it seems to be more prevalent in the Orions...
I feel like there have been reports of folks with new “everything” (gears, shafts, bearings) having similar issues...
Anytime you build/rebuild anything clearances should be checked but I’ve also rebuilt some stock cases that were downright floppy that stayed in gear.
I’m not saying you’re wrong - I’ve never built an Orion so I’m coming from a position of complete ignorance on that front, just trying to understand why it seems to be more prevalent in the Orions...
I was told it is just a factor of the 4:1 reduction and the forces are just that much higher with the bigger gears. I do not understand why there is so much variation with the clearances though, they machine the case, they can control the gear widths, I would think new output shafts are consistent, bearings are consistent, etc... I was hoping it would be a simple case build but didn't work out that easy...
I bought all new parts direct from AA and the clearances were way off. I called them and they basically told me to find a machine shop and shave some material off the output to make it better, believe they even called Georg to see if he had some washers to send. I pushed back as nothing said this should be required and I didn't want washers. They took my new output shaft back and machined it, sent it back and clearances were still off. I ended up sending them the whole output assembly with the gears, bearings and parking drum to set it up how it should be. This all happened right before covid and my stuff ended up stuck there for a few months before I got it back. Was a pain and took a long time but they took care of me. They set the clearances even tighter than what the instructions said because that is what they claimed was the problem with the popping. (Not sure why they wouldn't just require this if they know) Once I put it together the low/high shift collar was binding and almost impossible to move. They provide a modified collar with the kit and I think they cut too much material from the shaft part allowing too much play. I took a new collar and ground it down just to clear the gears and it shifts perfectly. It has been working great so far and the difference crawling is amazing.
Eric
I bought all new parts direct from AA and the clearances were way off. I called them and they basically told me to find a machine shop and shave some material off the output to make it better, believe they even called Georg to see if he had some washers to send. I pushed back as nothing said this should be required and I didn't want washers. They took my new output shaft back and machined it, sent it back and clearances were still off. I ended up sending them the whole output assembly with the gears, bearings and parking drum to set it up how it should be. This all happened right before covid and my stuff ended up stuck there for a few months before I got it back. Was a pain and took a long time but they took care of me. They set the clearances even tighter than what the instructions said because that is what they claimed was the problem with the popping. (Not sure why they wouldn't just require this if they know) Once I put it together the low/high shift collar was binding and almost impossible to move. They provide a modified collar with the kit and I think they cut too much material from the shaft part allowing too much play. I took a new collar and ground it down just to clear the gears and it shifts perfectly. It has been working great so far and the difference crawling is amazing.
Eric
to RWBeringer, I would agree that all new does not solve problem, the clearance and shape/condition of the output shaft and bushing in the high speed gear need to be checked. I could speculate alot of issues but would rather refer to Georg's knowledge as he has seen and built a high number of these, guys with that kind of hands on are a great resource. I will add that I figured when I originally ran mine with the condition the ocilation had worn the high speed gear and bushing into an hourglass shape which just intensified the issue, installed new engine and at that time got new output and put new bushing in high speed gear, got way better but still popped outa high under hard deceleration. Recently had the lower interior allen head back out and wreck things, replaced gears and rebuilt so a new high speed gear, new collar, new shift fork, still pops out, go figure, only thing not done as far as I know is it doesnt have the stepped washer. I clearly dont have a solution , after running the bungee fix for a long time the shift fork showed wear but not like in Mark's pic.
1MOA
SILVER Star
Yeah it is the cases.
Received my replacement case from Orion and after putting acetone in it leaked through the visible cracks in the case. This case is literally 3 minutes out of the box it was packed in foam the box was not damaged at all. It has serious casing flaws visible on the outside. on the inside the cracks are a spiderweb all through it and I find it impossible that this thing would of passed any quality control checks at all. In the one picture are 2 cases one has no outside casting flaws while the 2nd has the visible gouge at the bottom that leaks as well.
So far I have now had my 40 in the shop for 3 months and AA says they will not cover any of the labor for the pulling of the 1st defective case or the rebuilding of the 3rd one or simply going back to the standard transfer case i had and forgetting the Orion case.
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Wow! So much for bulletproof! This whole Orion project has been a huge black eye for AA that just doesn’t seem to end. I was actually considering yesterday that I have more or less relegated Ruftoys to a trail rig, something I railed against in Toyota Trails 15 years ago, just because of how much more frequent service the Orion, any Orion, will require.
I am toying with pulling my Orion out (even though there is nothing wrong with it) and putting a stock case back in just so I can use my 40 EVERYWHERE.
I am toying with pulling my Orion out (even though there is nothing wrong with it) and putting a stock case back in just so I can use my 40 EVERYWHERE.
1MOA
SILVER Star
If it works and doesn't empty itself I'd be interested in buying it. This experience between the lack of communication from them and the bad product has been utterly miserable.Wow! So much for bulletproof! This whole Orion project has been a huge black eye for AA that just doesn’t seem to end. I was actually considering yesterday that I have more or less relegated Ruftoys to a trail rig, something I railed against in Toyota Trails 15 years ago, just because of how much more frequent service the Orion, any Orion, will require.
I am toying with pulling my Orion out (even though there is nothing wrong with it) and putting a stock case back in just so I can use my 40 EVERYWHERE.
wow, thats s****, good thing you checked, tha was mayhem waiting.
Mark, so you gotta change the fork,collar, and check the output shaft clearance on high speed gear(1/1000 iirc) may have to get new shaft and rebush the gear when you change oil, the gears have held up and you can do it, they are quiet.
Mark, so you gotta change the fork,collar, and check the output shaft clearance on high speed gear(1/1000 iirc) may have to get new shaft and rebush the gear when you change oil, the gears have held up and you can do it, they are quiet.
Man, this is making me pretty apprehensive. Spent 3.5 years restoring my Cruiser with my own two hands and had some issues with my OEM T-case, so I decided to invest in getting what I perceived as an upgrade. From prior posts on this thread, which I read prior to ordering my Orion, it seemed all the bugs had been worked out but over the last month or so, it’s very much doom and gloom. Did I make a massive mistake by wasting a few grand? It’s supposed to ship to me next week...
1MOA
SILVER Star
I would send a polite email to their customer service today explain to them your concerns you can even link this thread if you want in your email and ask them to physically inspect the case before they ship it to you
Mine is being built by @orangefj45 and I would be shocked if he didn’t do a thorough inspection before putting together. However, it’s starting to make me wonder if the design or production is just not what’s advertised, versus assembly issues by the end user. I can’t decipher which. I rebuilt my 40 to drive the Pan-American highway and I can’t go into that kind of a trip without 110% confidence in my rig, as having a preventable breakdown could literally turn into a very dangerous situation.
I really hope Georg eventually chimes in here - I can’t imagine there are many folks out there who have assembled more of these than him.
I trust Georg implicitly when it comes to anything land cruiser related - I’m sure, particularly with such a high cost upgrade that everything gets checked and toleranced during assembly. If there’s a way to make the Orion “bomb proof” I’m sure Georg knows it. He helped me decipher a really bizarre “out of round” issue on an output shaft a few years ago that was causing me to hone straight through gear bushings before getting them to fit on the shaft. This is one reason I’ve been tossing around having him build mine if I ever decide to pull the trigger.
My gripe with all this is that I shouldn’t HAVE to have a transfer case assembled by a master mechanic and ground-to-fit... it shouldn’t arrive with missing parts or cracked castings. It should be delivered in a condition where it can be assembled by someone with a decent degree of mechanical aptitude can work through it methodically and put it together. I’ve built enough stock cases at this point that I’m competent enough, but pulling and repairing and tweaking a transfer case is too labor intensive to be repeatedly reworked if I don’t “get it right” (when I should already be right in the first place).
1MOA
SILVER Star
If you are planning a pan am trip I would go with a stock case and a solid rebuild a case saver and the return line between the transmission and the t case.
If anything were to go wrong you could at least find parts and/or a mechanic familiar with them in South America
69 4 fun
SILVER Star
I had George build mine. Popped out of gear! so I pulled it drove two hours to Stockton had him take it apart check everything. Paid an extra $300. Re-installed Still pops out. Tried to email and leave messages but he doesn’t respond. He said he was going to talk with AA but that has been probably two years. Very disappointing!!
