No Start, Low Voltage, No Parasitic Draw (1 Viewer)

[tcon82]

I have a brand new battery (2 weeks old) from Costco (24F 700 CCA) and my 97 LX450 didn't start after I left it for a couple days. Thinking it was my son that left a light on or something I jumped it and charged the battery while driving around a bit. After charging the battery, I tested for a parasitic draw (there was none) and I also tested the alternator (bat was going from 12.6v prior to start to 14-15v after start so I believe this means it is working). So after the battery charged I made sure everything was off and nothing drawing on the battery and I left it for 3 days. I come home today and there isnt enough juice to start - all lights come on but voltage reads low and starter just clicks with voltage meter flickering. After 2-3 attempts at starting I got out and checked the voltage on the bat which was 11.5 volts which I understand is too low.

I have almost no electric skills but I have done everything from mud and youtube and none of it is getting me closer to a solution. Here is what I have done so far:

1. New Battery (24F 700 CCA) from costco
2. Checked for parasitic draw - there is none. Method: remove negative bat terminal and test. I was getting 0.2 milli amps at most but most times it was zero. i would also check the draw with a dome light on etc and get 10-20 milli amp readings so i know the test was working.
3. Checked each fuse with multimeter and no showing of a draw with that method either
4. After a jump it will start right up and work for that day on its own. After leaving for 2+ days without driving it will not start.

I am at a loss here given I would think if there is no draw on the battery it should not be losing voltage and therefore start. Any help is much appreciated.

 

[ppc]

Why did you replace the battery to begin with and what other past history/maintenance?

 

[tcon82]

Why did you replace the battery to begin with and what other past history/maintenance?

I replaced it because the old one would not hold a charge. Didnt test it too much given it was 3 years old but new one certainly improved the issue until this week.

No recent maintenance in engine bay other than changing oil and I did connect a ground from the throttle sensor that was dangling around while i was in there.

 

[ppc]

You state no parasitic draw but a new battery acting the same as the previous battery points either to a defective battery, a parasitic draw or alternator not charging the battery.

First thing is to fully charge the battery then disconnect it for a day or more. Measure the voltage. If still in the 12.7 range, reconnect and try to start.

 

[tcon82]

You state no parasitic draw but a new battery acting the same as the previous battery points either to a defective battery, a parasitic draw or alternator not charging the battery.

First thing is to fully charge the battery then disconnect it for a day or more. Measure the voltage. If still in the 12.7 range, reconnect and try to start.

The battery is new and it likely was happening with the old battery as well so i think i can rule out the battery but will try this tonight.

I have already tested for parasitic draw many times and there is none in several different ways of measurement. Regarding the alternator, I tested it by measuring voltage prior to and after start several times and each time the voltage would increase from around 12 to 14-15. This was the way the internet told me to test the alternator but if there is a way that it could give me these readings and still be bad that would be interesting and maybe a start.

 

[ppc]

by chance after your parasitic testing did you enable an alarm system? There are just not many things it could be other than what I've listed.

 

[tcon82]

by chance after your parasitic testing did you enable an alarm system? There are just not many things it could be other than what I've listed.

No, did not engage alarm system. I am seeing some people elsewhere say there could be something wrong with grounds but i checked the main ones and they appear fine.

Would a bad ground draw on the battery without showing a parasitic draw?

 

[tcon82]

Question: Just went out and jumped the vehicle again. Started at 7 volts because i tried starting it so many times failing. After the jump the battery ran up to 13.8 volts as you would expect. I left the vehicle running for 15 minutes or so and shut it off and it restarted great. Let it run for a bit longer and then shut it off and checked the voltage again.

Voltage read 12.2. Fully charged shouldnt it read 12.6? The battery is still cranking at 12.2 volts but find that a bit strange potentially.

 

[jonheld]

Several things jump out at me from the original post

1. You say "no parasitic draw" but there should be between 20 to 30 mA of quiescent current draw between the ECU, clock, radio, alarm, etc.
Please provide a measurement of the total draw.

2. Once a flooded cell battery is depleted, it will not come back to 100%.

3. 15 minutes of run time is only enough for a "surface charge". The battery will hold a temporary charge, but it will fade quickly. You want at least an hour of run time to fully charge a battery.

4. A fully charged battery should read 12.6 volts when measured at rest across the terminals. With the engine running you should see 14.4 volts assuming a good alternator and healthy battery.

 

[ColoradoBoy]

What about the condition of your battery cables and fuseable links? If the battery is good, but no juice can flow out, that would be a problem...

EDIT: Follow Jon's advice to the letter, and you will get it figured out. He is one of the guru's here! (Thanks, Jon!)

 

[bajaphile]

I would also definitely setup the meter then activate the alarm system. Assuming it is aftermarket? Could be causing a relevant draw.

 

[tcon82]

Several things jump out at me from the original post

1. You say "no parasitic draw" but there should be between 20 to 30 mA of quiescent current draw between the ECU, clock, radio, alarm, etc.
Please provide a measurement of the total draw.

2. Once a flooded cell battery is depleted, it will not come back to 100%.

3. 15 minutes of run time is only enough for a "surface charge". The battery will hold a temporary charge, but it will fade quickly. You want at least an hour of run time to fully charge a battery.

4. A fully charged battery should read 12.6 volts when measured at rest across the terminals. With the engine running you should see 14.4 volts assuming a good alternator and healthy battery.

Thanks for the help, Jon. Here is an update: this morning battery was at 11.9volts but started up fine (seems to take 48 hours or more to deplete past the point of being able to start). Came home from work and started up again fine and drove it around for 40 minutes to charge battery. While on the voltage read 13.7 volts and while off it read 12.6 volts but quickly dropped to 12.27volts and has stayed there for the past hour or so.

Regarding the multimeter test maybe some pics would be helpful. Black cable in com port, red cable in 10ADC port and meter set to 200milliamps. Red wire on cable and black wire touching terminal. Please correct me if any of this is wrong - this was youtube university multimeter.

pic #1 reading 00.2 is with car off all doors closed and nothing else on.

Pic #2 reading 6.6 is with one door open

Pic #3 reading 13.1 is with one door open and the dome light on.

Hopefully this helps give you a sense of the situation better.

 

[shocktower]

Do you have the RS3000 alarm system, under the front seat drivers side , that thing is a vampire, also like @jonheld said your battery has never been fully charged, even 40 minutes driving is not enough for a battery you already killed a couple of times, I would take the battery back to costco and get a better one like Interstate Deka or a high quality one, and put it on a charger and make sure it is fully charged and then narrow down you problem , and like I said if you have the stock alarm yank it out

 

[jonheld]

Thanks for the help, Jon. Here is an update: this morning battery was at 11.9volts but started up fine (seems to take 48 hours or more to deplete past the point of being able to start). Came home from work and started up again fine and drove it around for 40 minutes to charge battery. While on the voltage read 13.7 volts and while off it read 12.6 volts but quickly dropped to 12.27volts and has stayed there for the past hour or so.

Regarding the multimeter test maybe some pics would be helpful. Black cable in com port, red cable in 10ADC port and meter set to 200milliamps. Red wire on cable and black wire touching terminal. Please correct me if any of this is wrong - this was youtube university multimeter.

pic #1 reading 00.2 is with car off all doors closed and nothing else on.

Pic #2 reading 6.6 is with one door open

Pic #3 reading 13.1 is with one door open and the dome light on.

Hopefully this helps give you a sense of the situation better.

Couple of things going on here.
You are not using the meter correctly. The positive lead should be plugged into the Volt/Ohm/mA port to read low current. As you have it hooked up, I'm not sure what your readings are. You should download the manual for the meter and become familiar with it before using it.

A battery at rest reading 11.9 volts is approx 60% discharged. Again, once a flooded cell battery has been discharged it will not come back to 100% and should be replaced.

A reading of 13.7 with the engine running tells me there is an issue with the charging system. It should read 14.4 volts while charging the battery. That could be due to a faulty alternator or a shorted cell in the battery that is bringing down the system voltage. Again, replace the battery.

All of this hinges on your ability to use this $10 meter correctly.

 

[tcon82]

Couple of things going on here.
You are not using the meter correctly. The positive lead should be plugged into the Volt/Ohm/mA port to read low current. As you have it hooked up, I'm not sure what your readings are. You should download the manual for the meter and become familiar with it before using it.

A battery at rest reading 11.9 volts is approx 60% discharged. Again, once a flooded cell battery has been discharged it will not come back to 100% and should be replaced.

A reading of 13.7 with the engine running tells me there is an issue with the charging system. It should read 14.4 volts while charging the battery. That could be due to a faulty alternator or a shorted cell in the battery that is bringing down the system voltage. Again, replace the battery.

All of this hinges on your ability to use this $10 meter correctly.

No manual with this piece of junk unfortunately but I have tried it that way and it gives no readings. Pics attached.

first two pics read zero with red wire in milliamp port. Third pic is when i switch back to the 10amp port (with door open).

Thinking about this now, am i reading in amps in the third pic (ie reading 670 mA)? The max setting is at 200 mA which means it should not read anything over that but i am wondering if it changes things because the red is in the amps port.

 

[Howard705]

I'd charge the battery overnight. close the car up remove all keys etc etc. you will go over your ma rating as you disconnect and reconnect cable/meter. Amps go up as circuits temporarily power up when reconnecting.
Put a jumper between the post and cable for a while- not sure how long before everything "goes to sleep". I'd go 30 min. Connect meter on 200ma (using clips so it stays) or vice grips etc. then remove jumper and read ma. Would be somewhat easier with a meter that could be left on 10A and read smaller decimal points .01 . that should be continuous long term parasitic draw. May be threads on this. Then will need to find which circuit if too high.

 

[george_tlc]

OP:

Likely the fuse on the low current range is blown. That's why you get 0.0 in your latter picture. So, at this point we have no idea what the correct current reading is.

To use a meter (such as the one in your pics) on the current range, either:

1) Put the Red into the 10A socket and the switch to the 10A position. Of course if >10A then you could blow the meter (cheap meters have unfused 10A circuits). DC current clamp is the way to go for higher current measurements.
or
2) Put the Red into the mA socket and the switch to one of the mA positions.

Any other combo will give unknown readings.

3) ALWAYS start with 1), the 10A socket and 10A range to ensure that the current isn't too high and if it is less than your highest mA range move to 2).

A discharged battery will never fully charge by just driving around for 30 minutes. You really need to put it on a wall charger and let it charge overnight on a low range such as 5A. Just calculate the AH you want to put in (lets assume at least 50), so on a 5A range you need at least 10 hours, etc.

cheers,
george.

 

[tcon82]

New and better multimeter it is then, gents. Thanks for the help.

FWIW I followed george's instructions above (which is why it was originally on 10A setting) as that is what youtube told me to do. New multimeter it is though as i do think it may be blown somehow given no readings. Stay tuned for more bush league electronics.

 

[jonheld]

Your meter is reading 0 because you're on the 10 amp scale. You want to be on a lower range in order to get a real reading.
The 10 amp scale should be used with the 10 amp terminal on the meter.
The milli-amp scale should be used with the mA terminal on the meter.

 

[tcon82]

Your meter is reading 0 because you're on the 10 amp scale. You want to be on a lower range in order to get a real reading.
The 10 amp scale should be used with the 10 amp terminal on the meter.
The milli-amp scale should be used with the mA terminal on the meter.

The second pic shows it on the 200mA scale and still shows zero though.