Need to remove PS pump to check if PSP is causing engine knock - will oil leak from the Oil Pump with the PSP removed (1 Viewer)

Joined
Jun 13, 2019
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Perth, Western Australia
Hi all, I am in Perth, Western Australia and have not attempted taking the PSP off my 1994 GXL 80 Series 1FZ-FE Non Turbo EFI petrol engine (Stock Standard) before now.
I have no prior Service History on this motor - picked it up 2 months ago at a bargain price of $2000, Road Registered - Very little Off Road use, Interior in excellent condition for its age.
It has a 'tinny' sounding knock at start up and not so loud at TEMP.
Rev the engine slowly and the knock quietens, is hardly audible till REVS come down to just under 1000 rpm.
Have done all the usual diagnostic checks and replace things like:
- Dropped the oil and engine flush
- Dropped No 2 sump Pan - it had about 1/2" of sludge in the bottom of pan.
- Pick up Screen Filter had Sludge caked on it with 2 x 1/2" clear screen for oil to be sucked up through.
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- Degreased and thoroughly cleaned the Pan and Pick Up Screen with a toothbrush.

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- Replaced No 2 Pan and fitted new RYCO Z9 Oil Filter and refilled with new 20W-50 oil.
- Oil Pressure was on the LOW side before, now running just under 3/4 mark at TEMP idle.
Knocking sound still there BUT NOT as loud as when first heard.
NOTE: I did screed through the old oil and sludge from the No 2 Pan with a old Microwave Magnetron Magnet (they are very powerful magnets) and NO Metal particles present in Oil or in No 2 Pan.
- Cut in half old Original Oil Filter and inspected the internal filter - NO Metal particles - Ferrous or Non- ferrous ) were seen or present in the old filter.
- Fitted a NEW Z9 Oil Filter , New Cheap Oil and ran an Engine Flush through the engine.
- Again dropped the oil and drained the system.
- Cut open the removed Z9 Oil Filter and again - NO metal particles seen or detected in that oil filter.
- Fitted a new Z9 Oil Filter and filled sump with new 20W-50 Oil.
- Engine Knock not so loud as it was but is still there oil gauge shows just below 3/4 mark at Engine TEMP and idle.
- Dropped the original Coolant and did a Cooling System Flush and refilled with new RED Coolant.
NOTE: No Oil in the Cooling System and No Coolant in the Oil Pan before doing the 2 Flush out regimes.
I have done all the usual elimination checks and replaced things like:
- Dropped the Coolant, ran a Heavy Duty Cooling System Flush and re filled with RED coolant;
- New Drive belts
- Water Pump;
- New Thermostat;
- Idler Bearing;
- A/C Adjuster Pulley;
- TC Chain Tensioner;
- Replaced the Oil Pump Relief Valve, Spring and Washer after cleaning out the Relief Vale housing.
- Cleaned Oil Cooler Relief Valve, Spring, and housing and checked it operated freely - ( was not able to buy a new Oil Cooler Relief valve and spring from Toyota- New one EX- Japan 6 weeks to arrive here in Perth)
- Removed the top bolt above the OIL Cooler Relief Valve and checked that this Relief Valve was not sludged up and had free movement.
- I put a small amount of ATF into the Oil Cooler Relief Valve housing before I did the engine oil flush - Oil Cooler Relief valve operates smoothly.
NOTE: I could not obtain a new OEM Oil Cooler Relief Valve, Spring and Washer from Toyota (none in stock in Oz) - 6 weeks before they would have one to me ex Japan.
Vehicle drives and accelerates good through all the gears.
No rough idling.
No Misfiring.
No ECU Error Codes detected.
Removed the exhaust manifold heat shields as there were a few cracks in the shields.
NO visible signs of exhaust manifold leaks at all.
But the 'tinny' knocking sound is still audible BUT as said it is not as bad as when I first heard the engine running when I bought it.
There is absolutely NO Thumping Knocking sound that I have heard a Rod or Main Bearing makes and as mentioned it quietens when at TEMP and when increasing the REVS.
When I put a Stethoscope Probe on the engine, I hear a very loud knocking when held against the Powers Steering Pump casing.
When Held on the Valve Cover - it sounds like a locomotive.
To my 'Untrained Ear' - Not being a mechanic, it sounds to me like Valve Shims maybe way out of specs?
If I hold it against the engine block at each Cylinder I hear more like a ticking sound but NO KNOCKING sound as described above.
- Have removed all the belts and the tin knocking sound is still heard.
- I have removed each spark lead (in turn) and NO difference in the sound of the knock on each cylinder.
I have a new PSP 'O' Ring and was going to tackle disconnecting the PSP to see if the knock disappears with it just unbolted.
This brings me to my question:
If I unbolt the PSP and start the engine, will the Oil Pump Driven Gears spurt Oil out of the opening where the PSP bolts into?
I don't have a garage or shed to work in, on this vehicle - just on brick paving and under a Carport - NOT wanting engine oil spewed out onto the Brick Paving if I start the engine without the PSP connected.
Better to know now before I do this than have a Major HAZ MAT clean up or have to replace Brick Paving afterwards. :-(
Much a appreciate your more learned experience and advise, in advance.
Cheers
Phil
 
Last edited:

ppc

M Go Blue
Joined
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Nashville, TN
You need to edit your post. I has a very long section of blank space and repeated text. You must have had your enter key stuck on.
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
8
Location
Perth, Western Australia
You need to edit your post. I has a very long section of blank space and repeated text. You must have had your enter key stuck on.

WOW! thank you for letting me know.
I noticed one of the USB cables in the front of my PC was resting on the Enter Key when I turned on my PC this morning-that must have been the culprit.
Note to me :
Don't write a POST after midnight. :)
I'll Edit my Post again.
Cheers
Phil
 
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Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
8
Location
Perth, Western Australia
Checked if the Crank Bolt was loose - Was tight and and could not get any more torque on the bolt.
I made up a Crank Pulley Holding tool bolted to the Crank Pulley and to rests against the chassis to stop the engine turning while torquing the bolt - no movement at all.
Thinking perhaps the Crank Pulley rubber is de-laminating however, there is no wobble in the Crank Pulley seen when engine running.

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Joined
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Location
Olathe, KS, USA
Checked if the Crank Bolt was loose - Was tight and and could not get any more torque on the bolt.
I made up a Crank Pulley Holding tool bolted to the Crank Pulley and to rests against the chassis to stop the engine turning while torquing the bolt - no movement at all.
Thinking perhaps the Crank Pulley rubber is de-laminating however, there is no wobble in the Crank Pulley seen when engine running.

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The reason is that the torque on the crank nut DRIVES the oil pump AND the PS pump. It is supposed to be torqued to 304 LB-FT. The delamination of the rubber of the HB.

It's all gotta be TIGHT!

A common "knock in these is that someone replaced the PS pump and gouged the teeth on the PS pump drive gear. It only has to be a tiny spot to make a boatload of noise. Pull the PS pump with it shut off an inspect the teeth. Look for minor imperfections or plier/vise marks.
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
8
Location
Perth, Western Australia
Hi BILT4ME,
thank you for your valuable comments and suggestions.
I will certainly inspect the PSP drive gear when I take it out.
It could well be that previous owners have removed the PSP and damaged the drive gear.
As I mentioned earlier (in my Original Post), I have no prior Service History on this engine so it is, trial and elimination for me to rule out possible causes.
I do have a 'Donor' 1FZ-FE Engine complete with Auto Transmission (on stand-by) with a PSP in place that was a good runner with no issues.
I'll more than likely swap over the 'Donor' PSP to save time in putting a rebuilt kit through the original PSP and also not have to run around to parts suppliers here in Perth, Western Australia to find a bearing that will fit the PSP.
One problem in sourcing parts here is that most parts come ex- Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne and can take up to 2 weeks to have the arrive here in Western Australia - It is why we call W.A. - The 'WAIT AWHILE' State of Australia. :)
My original thinking was perhaps the bearing inside of the original PSP was causing the problem but as you've indicated the PSP drive gear may have been damage and causing the knocking sound.
As an aside: I have a Multiple Sclerosis related hand disability - lss of my 'fine motor movements' of my hands, a bit of a challenge and which makes replacing parts with a new kit a tad difficult and time consuming so, if the 'Donor' PSP turns out to have issues, I throw $96 Aud at it, buy a New PS Pump and put that in.

My question originally was:

If I was to disconnect the existing PS Pump, and started the engine (for a short time) would oil be spewed out of the opening where the PSP bolts into or would it be just a trickle or light spray of oil that would come out with the PSP removed
?

If the oil is spewed out of the opening where the PSP bolts into then I'll end up with a bigger mess to clean up afterwards, especially on the Brick Paving area where I can only do the work on the engine.
If it only a tickle of oil or light spray that comes out of the opening, I can manage that by putting a container underneath the opening and even cutting a circle of sheet metal and Gaffer Tape that over the opening to stop any oil spewing out while I start the engine.
My thinking being that, by disconnecting the original PSP and starting the engine (for a short time) and there is no knocking sound happening with it removed - then I'll know for sure it is the PSP causing the problem.
I'll know within seconds of the engine firing up if there is or is not any knocking sound with the PSP removed.
When I hold the stethoscope probe on the casing of the PSP the knocking is loudest on that area.
As mentioned earlier (in my Original Post) the knocking sound quietens as the Oil circulates and comes to TEMP and is hardly audible when I increase the engine REVS above 1000 RPM up to 3500 RPM - holding the REVS there is NO Knocking and then is heard again when the engine REVS comes back down to idle.
The Knocking sound is more of a 'Tinny' sound and NOT the deep Thumping Knock I've heard Rod and Main bearings make and which are heard at ALL REV ranges and under load if the vehicle is driven on the road.

Ahh! the joys of trying to diagnose where the knocking is coming from, eh?
The main thing is to have fun in the doing of it.
This 1994 Landy 80 series is not my 'Daily Drive' - I got it at a cheap price -$2000 Aud - Road Registered - Very Little (if any) Off Road use - Stock Standard except for a 3" Lift - 5 x Brand New Mickey Thompson ATZ P3 285-75-16 Tyres - Interior Immaculate for its age as a project to keep my hands moving and doing things.
My Mantra with living with a MS related conditions is:
'I may have a MS related condition BUT it DOES NOT have me!'
I've dribble on long enough and thank you for your suggestions, which I will pursue.
I much appreciate your your input.
Kind regards
Phil
Perth, Western Australia
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
8
Location
Perth, Western Australia
Hi,
I have some 2 mm thick galvanised sheet metal I can use to make a temp block off plate.
So I am then correct to assume that if I leave it open, just to start the engine for 10 seconds to hear if the knocking sound is still there, that Oil will spew out of the opening where the PSP bolts into?
Cheers
Phil
 

leonard_nemoy

SILVER Star
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Location
South west utah
Good luck with your ms, my fishing buddy got diagnosed with it 8 years ago and it has been hard watching him struggle with his knots and stuff but continuing to stay active and not giving up is the key.
 

Tedward

95 LC
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Location
Cleveland OH
There may not be an active Mud member that has run the motor without a ps pump in place. You may be the first to do that and post online here about it.

Personally, I would assume lots of oil would come flying out.
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
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Location
Perth, Western Australia
Good luck with your ms, my fishing buddy got diagnosed with it 8 years ago and it has been hard watching him struggle with his knots and stuff but continuing to stay active and not giving up is the key.

Much appreciated Leonard, I have a MS related condition that attacks the Peripheral Nerves (the Autoimmune System chews off the coating called the 'Myelin Sheath' that covers the nerves) - in my case the Nerves that attach to the Biceps, forearms, hands and finger muscles, the electrical impulses from the brain are short circuited as a result of the missing Myelin sheath coating the Nerves and gradually the muscles waste away and the hands and fingers lose the fine motor movements and some affecting of the feet.
I was diagnosed in 2008 - was a Carpenter before it hit me, I could run around the top plate of a house frame, now can't pick up a 5 cent coin off the ground with my fingers or stand on one foot without losing my balance. :)
Makes it very difficult working on the Landy 80 series - it took me 1 hour to just screw on a new Oil Filter - but I got it in the end though physically exhausted after.
Determined to (and this 'ole Fart') is stubborn enough to get this 80 Series running on a low budget (now on a Disability Support Pension) so it does not leave many $$$'s to outlay on parts or having a Mechanic do the work for me.
I am also undertaking a renovation solo, on a small property I have in the South East of Western Australia (450 km away from Perth).
I gave up motorcycling for 8 years as I could not use a clutch lever on a motorcycle with my left hand - missed riding so much I had some spare cash back then and bought a 2008 Yamaha FJR1300 model with the Clutch-less Transmission System - YEEHAW! Now back riding a motorcycle again.
I still do my own servicing on my 2006 Navara D22 ZD30 4x4 Dual Cab:
I did the Front Wheel Bearings and Wheel Bearing Cups a 1 year ago.
I fitted a set of ARB Ute Draws to the rear tub of the Dual Cab 2 months ago.
Removed and replaced a blown EGR pipe 8 months ago, that runs behind the engine near the firewall - that took me 5 days to do
I bought the 80 Series as a project and at $2000 Aud a steal at that price.
I picked up a Part Time 4WD Conversion Kit for it, a few weeks ago, for 1/2 the retail price and tackled the job of removing the Transfer Case and fitting the kit to the Transfer Case (from under the vehicle).
I then installed the Part Time Front Wheel Hubs.
Mission accomplished even though it took me 4 days to achieve instead of the 4 hours it takes an able bodied mechanic to do in their workshop.
All that to say, it does not matter what trials of life GOD may allow us to go through, we MUST have FAITH and stay goal focused and set NEW challenges each day to maintain the mobility of our hands and feet and most importantly get a sense of self achievement in the doing of those tasks..
I wish your 'fishing buddy'all the very best and I encourage him to stay goal focused.
My Mantra in my challenge is:
'I may have a MS related condition BUT MS DOES NOT HAVE ME'!!

Feel free to share this Mantra with your 'Fishing Buddy' if you wish to, as it has helped me to not mentally succumb to the negatives that some in the Medical Profession sprout, when one is diagnosed with an illness like this.
My specialist cannot believe that I am undertaking what I do and shakes her head, citing most of her patients lead less active lives and waste away so quickly. NOT THIS BLACK DUCK thank you. :)
Cheers
Phil
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
8
Location
Perth, Western Australia
Torque setting on the crank?
I may have a MS related condition BUT it DOES NOT have me!'
Hi,
I have some 2 mm thick galvanised sheet metal I can use to make a temp block off plate.
So I am then correct to assume that if I leave it open, just to start the engine for 10 seconds to hear if the knocking sound is still there, that Oil will spew out of the opening where the PSP bolts into?
Cheers
Phil
Good luck with your ms, my fishing buddy got diagnosed with it 8 years ago and it has been hard watching him struggle with his knots and stuff but continuing to stay active and not giving up is the key.
 

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