Need a jump 2-3 times a week! (1 Viewer)
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Rather than start a new thread as I suggested to my son, let me jump in here instead. These last couple of notes lead me to believe that we're all thinking along the same lines; namely, that the problem is with the starter solenoid switch (the starter solenoid plunger referred to by gbogh). Right now, my son doesn't have a lot of time to do anything to his Cruiser that is very time consuming, as he has only one day off each week. Rebuilding the starter solenoid is the path that I would take, but how long do you think someone working in a gravel parking lot would need to get this done? As you are well aware, he doesn't have a lot of experience under the hood of a car, so he will have to be very deliberate in attacking any sort of rebuild. And he has only that day off to get the work done. Then he needs the car the next day to get to work or else pay an Uber driver every day the Cruiser is down. But that's his decision to make. I'm just asking for some advice from those of you who have done this sort of thing before.
I would also like to ask if my rationale for zeroing in on the starter solenoid switch is sound. Please feel free to poke holes in it.
On days when the Cruiser won't start, it has to be because the battery was, in fact, drained of too much of its charge during the previous 12-16 hours she was sitting in the parking lot. The reason for this is because a jump start always works.
Conversely, on days when she does start, her battery wasn't being drained.
The parasitic drain test showed a small drain of around 37 mA through the dome light fuse. But a 37 mA drain is not going to discharge a healthy battery. Modern cars have that drain all the time to keep their electronic gizmos healthy. I worked some numbers and proved to myself that it would take about a 5 A drain for 15-16 hours to use up the reserve capacity of a healthy battery. So the dome light circuit can not be the culprit. Of course, since the Cruiser failed to start at least twice since that fuse was pulled, settles that anyway.
The most direct path for a significant drain on the battery to occur that doesn't pass through one of the 17 fuses in the fuse box is from the starter directly back to the battery. Since the starter motors, themselves, are pretty tough and reliable, the problem has to be that the starter solenoid switch is sticking closed some of the time when it should be opened up. Is it possible, then, that a sticking starter solenoid switch is somehow allowing a drain of several amps for several hours without anyone being able to detect it? If it is, then that switch is the culprit and needs to be replaced/rebuilt.
I haven't had nearly the kind of experiences under the hood that you guys on this forum have had. Many decades in the past I did a little work on an old Plymouth Valiant slant six, and then I tried to recapture my lost youth in my forties with a sweet little MGB that kept me busy. But this is the first time that I've had to think about an electrical problem. And what's rattling around inside this old head ain't pretty!
Thanks for your input.
I would also like to ask if my rationale for zeroing in on the starter solenoid switch is sound. Please feel free to poke holes in it.
On days when the Cruiser won't start, it has to be because the battery was, in fact, drained of too much of its charge during the previous 12-16 hours she was sitting in the parking lot. The reason for this is because a jump start always works.
Conversely, on days when she does start, her battery wasn't being drained.
The parasitic drain test showed a small drain of around 37 mA through the dome light fuse. But a 37 mA drain is not going to discharge a healthy battery. Modern cars have that drain all the time to keep their electronic gizmos healthy. I worked some numbers and proved to myself that it would take about a 5 A drain for 15-16 hours to use up the reserve capacity of a healthy battery. So the dome light circuit can not be the culprit. Of course, since the Cruiser failed to start at least twice since that fuse was pulled, settles that anyway.
The most direct path for a significant drain on the battery to occur that doesn't pass through one of the 17 fuses in the fuse box is from the starter directly back to the battery. Since the starter motors, themselves, are pretty tough and reliable, the problem has to be that the starter solenoid switch is sticking closed some of the time when it should be opened up. Is it possible, then, that a sticking starter solenoid switch is somehow allowing a drain of several amps for several hours without anyone being able to detect it? If it is, then that switch is the culprit and needs to be replaced/rebuilt.
I haven't had nearly the kind of experiences under the hood that you guys on this forum have had. Many decades in the past I did a little work on an old Plymouth Valiant slant six, and then I tried to recapture my lost youth in my forties with a sweet little MGB that kept me busy. But this is the first time that I've had to think about an electrical problem. And what's rattling around inside this old head ain't pretty!
Thanks for your input.
22590FJ62
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- Thread starter
- #163
I'm going to address this, either in the morning or on my days off. It now turns out that I should have Saturdays and Sundays off, so with a little direction should have ample time to address issues.
When y'all spoke of possible issues with the starter solenoid switch and/or possibly a relay of sorts, I had to Google what a starter relay was. I already have a decent idea of what the starter and the starter solenoid do, thanks to my father the physicist.
What I found on Google was quite interesting. The title was "Here are the symptoms of a bad or failing starter relay."
1. Vehicle does not start.
2. Starter stays on after vehicle starts.
3. Intermittent issues starting the vehicle.
4. Clicking sound coming from the starter.
1, 3 and 4 make complete sense to me, although I get more of a thump than a click. I'm still not sure what a starter relay is, what it looks like and/or where to locate it on the vehicle to replace it, but this information seemed promising to possibly address my issue. Thoughts? Here's the link.
Failing Relay Symptoms
This is a cutaway if a starter with a solenoid that throws the drive cog out to make contact with the flywheel.
the relay is the bit on top.To the left you can see a seesaw pivot attached to a plunger on the relay and a sliding gear on the starter motor.
the relay is the bit on top.To the left you can see a seesaw pivot attached to a plunger on the relay and a sliding gear on the starter motor.
I have searched for you and found a starter rebuild thread here:
forum.ih8mud.com
Here are the Toyota part #s for a starter rebuild.
I just got done rebuilding the starter on my '87 and I thought I would share the part numbers for the contacts and the plunger. I got the parts from Cdan, and he had to cross reference the numbers for a 3FE starter in an early 80 series. The Toyota computer does not show the individual parts...
forum.ih8mud.com
As with anything before you go down the rabbit hole....next time the truck doesn't start and you hear the "thump"...open the hood and thwack the starter a couple of times. If the truck starts up its probably time to rebuild or replace the starter. If that has no effect on the starting but a jump start does then I would suggest the the relay mod i mentioned above.
22590FJ62
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- Thread starter
- #167
This thread is awesome! It looks like @hodag and @zcruiser really saved a lot of time, money and potential frustration by going down this route. The next time it doesn't start and I give the starter a thwack like @Seth S suggested, this might be the route to take...as well as maybe the relay as well. Y'all are truly awesome!!I have searched for you and found a starter rebuild thread here:
Here are the Toyota part #s for a starter rebuild.
I just got done rebuilding the starter on my '87 and I thought I would share the part numbers for the contacts and the plunger. I got the parts from Cdan, and he had to cross reference the numbers for a 3FE starter in an early 80 series. The Toyota computer does not show the individual parts...
Gretsch
SILVER Star
I have seen where this is a common route to take. So much so that many folks claim to just do this as one of the first mods they do on these trucks.
Before you go down the road of adding a relay let me offer this up. I mentioned this way back on page 6 but will do so again here. Try using a remote starter to bypass your trigger wiring. This is roughly the same as doing what @Seth S's video shows. If it cranks with the remote switch and not with the key, then you know the battery, cables, solenoid, and starter are good. You can then assume its the voltage through the trigger wire and can then either seek out the issue using a multi-meter or wire up the relay mod. If it doesn't crank then your trigger wire is OK and issue could be sticky solenoid/starter, connections, etc. However as others have said, if banging on the solenoid makes it work after turning the key doesn't, then you can focus on that being the issue. The remote starter idea is literally 2 minutes to try. I got one at Autozone for like $16. I only mention this because I went down the same exact road as you. I was able to rule out my trigger wiring as the issue using the remote switch idea, purchased a new Toyota/Denso re-man'd unit and have never looked back. Problem solved.
While fixing the solenoid is possible, I would just replace the starter if it seems suspect. If the solenoid is going bad who knows how long you have with the starter itself. Everything on your truck is ripe for replacing if it has not been done. There are certainly worse issues in this life than buying an unneeded starter for your 30 year old vehicle. Even if it does not fix your issue, you know its been done. I realize this is throwing parts at a problem a bit, but your issue can be only a handful of things at this point. Ruling one out wouldn't be the worse thing in the world.
The fact that jumps get you going still seem to me to be something with the power delivered. I have seen plenty of batteries that test 'good' and yet can't crank a car over. Maybe have the battery tested by someone who is not on the hook for giving you a new one if the test fails. I would also clean up the contacts on the starter. Looks pretty messy in your photos. And again, check the fusible links. GL. HTH.
Before you go down the road of adding a relay let me offer this up. I mentioned this way back on page 6 but will do so again here. Try using a remote starter to bypass your trigger wiring. This is roughly the same as doing what @Seth S's video shows. If it cranks with the remote switch and not with the key, then you know the battery, cables, solenoid, and starter are good. You can then assume its the voltage through the trigger wire and can then either seek out the issue using a multi-meter or wire up the relay mod. If it doesn't crank then your trigger wire is OK and issue could be sticky solenoid/starter, connections, etc. However as others have said, if banging on the solenoid makes it work after turning the key doesn't, then you can focus on that being the issue. The remote starter idea is literally 2 minutes to try. I got one at Autozone for like $16. I only mention this because I went down the same exact road as you. I was able to rule out my trigger wiring as the issue using the remote switch idea, purchased a new Toyota/Denso re-man'd unit and have never looked back. Problem solved.
While fixing the solenoid is possible, I would just replace the starter if it seems suspect. If the solenoid is going bad who knows how long you have with the starter itself. Everything on your truck is ripe for replacing if it has not been done. There are certainly worse issues in this life than buying an unneeded starter for your 30 year old vehicle. Even if it does not fix your issue, you know its been done. I realize this is throwing parts at a problem a bit, but your issue can be only a handful of things at this point. Ruling one out wouldn't be the worse thing in the world.
The fact that jumps get you going still seem to me to be something with the power delivered. I have seen plenty of batteries that test 'good' and yet can't crank a car over. Maybe have the battery tested by someone who is not on the hook for giving you a new one if the test fails. I would also clean up the contacts on the starter. Looks pretty messy in your photos. And again, check the fusible links. GL. HTH.
22590FJ62
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- #171
I must say I've been a little stubborn so far...it's like I ask for help but don't take it when it's offered. I think being ignorant to a lot of this stuff feeds me uneducated fear that one or two of these things, like the remote start, would actually work but would bypass the issue at hand. After you explained it the way you did here, I feel a lot better about trying that first. Also, with replacing the full starter instead of just doing that rebuild as suggested on that other thread, my dad told me to do that as well. He basically said the same thing...and if I did that, I'd be starting off with good parts that could potentially last a very long time. I don't want a crap unit that I'll have to rebuild several times over the next 10-15 years, but I also don't want to go to Toyota and give them an arm and a leg. I'll clean up the connections to all of the cables this weekend and I'll check to see what, if anything, is going on with the fusible links.
Gretsch
SILVER Star
Yes let me be clear here. Understand the remote start is not a permanent fix. Its just to help figure out what's going on. When you test this, you wait for the starter to thump, open the hood, take one lead on the remote start switch, hook it to positive on your battery, then take the other lead, unplug the trigger wire on the starter, and hook the lead from the remote switch to it. Then pull back on the trigger and see if the starter turns. You don't actually want the truck to start with this. You don't even use the key. You just want to see if the starter is able to turn and activate with the remote switch. You are effectively bypassing the electrical path the trigger wire would normally provide, and providing power straight from the battery to the solenoid. So no key lock to worry about, no trigger wire, etc. After the test you take the remote switch off and put things back where you found them.
You are by no means obligated to do anything suggested here, but I would have to agree that a lot has been suggested throughout the course of this thread that would have helped you early on and has not been done before another post is added about 'what to do next'. It sounds like you are under some time constraints so I understand that over time its hard to keep track of what happens in these various posts and you get busy and loose track, etc.. I am certainly guilty of that myself and have paid the price for it in wasted time and effort. This is a great resource, the best you will find, and these guys/gals know these trucks. Everything that you will encounter has happened before to someone else, so I would learn to trust what folks say. Your issue has become really less of a Cruiser problem and more just a normal everyday car thing. I don't think there is any question folks are willing to help out, but from what I have seen they become less motivated when ignored. That's not a dig, just some friendly advice to maybe help you down the road with issues you will no doubt encounter if continuing to own one of these vehicles.
I applaud you for trying to learn about these trucks. They take a lot of time however and not the sort of thing you can just get in and drive. While plenty reliable, they are over 30 years old and need some help getting through. Its rare they won't get you there, but just need some attention periodically to do so. GL. HTH.
Gretsch
SILVER Star
Any update on your issue? Were you able to get something figured out?
22590FJ62
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- #175
It’s most likely a sticking problem in the starter solenoid. I have ordered the parts. Cruiser Dan (cDan) is no longer at American Toyota in Albuquerque so I used the part numbers from that other thread to locate the parts on ToyotaPartsDeal.com. Less than $70 with shipping. Just waiting for them to get here. I also checked the oil pressure sender. It seems to be aftermarket...I’m having trouble getting the wire out of it so that I can test it to see if the unit itself needs replacing, the wiring is bad or the gauge is bad. I can get the parts from the website, but if it’s wiring, I’ll most likely have to do that myself. The cruiser has started every time since Wednesday morning with one failure to crank on the initial turn of the key but it cranked on the second turn...so I’m thinking that the plunger either isn’t making a great connection or is so gunky that it’s failing to engage at all (when it doesn’t start).
22590FJ62
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- #177
Alright, so the parts that I got were for the starter itself (can you tell how ignorant I am to all of this yet?) and when I went to remove the starter, I successfully got the 13mm nut removed where the positive cable goes to the battery and I got the 17mm bolt removed where the ground goes to the frame...I could not for the life of me access the 17mm bolt on the top of the starter. I instead removed the solenoid switch by unscrewing 2 10mm hex bolts and one 13mm nut. I opened that up, cleaned everything really well and before putting everything (starter wise) back together, I thoroughly cleaned every cable connection (and metal contact points) from Fourrunner's cable kit. The Beast started up fine, but I still think I'd benefit from taking the starter off and replacing the parts. I may need a mechanic's help. Tomorrow I'll be replacing the oil pressure sender with a new OEM part. I'm hoping that fixes the incorrect pressure reading, but if it doesn't, I'll get a new gauge as well. I will also be pulling the front passenger door panel off to hopefully address the issue with my window not going all the way up. And lastly, I'll be looking into the connector points in the wiring of the dome lights to see what may be causing the parasitic draw. Although this isn't exactly the news I wanted to share, I did want to update you guys on my progress because y'all have been so helpful and patient with me. Thanks again!
Fourrunner
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Glad it is coming together for you. I've pulled the starter on mine before and don't recall it being to terribly hard. Been a few years though.
Fourrunner
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Seems I just used a few extensions. Like I said, its been a while.
