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Mr. T wants to me to adopt 2 new cats

Discussion in '80-Series Tech' started by semlin, Mar 10, 2004.

  1. semlin

    semlin discouraged user

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    OK, so I failed emissions testing again. Even 10% ethanol 94 octane gas plus burning off a tank with "guaranteed to pass" emission additive failed to get the NOX down to less than 1.6 times the passing rate.

    So I gave Mr. T's mechanic a chance. Mr. T's mechanic advisor tells me the mechanic has run a diagnostic and feels the EGR works and my emission problems are due to bad cats because he has eliminated everything else. I have asked him to check back to confirm they have checked the timing, tested the MAF, and carefully checked the o2 sensors, and generally made sure it is not running lean for some reason. Is there anything else I should ask them to do?

    Mr. T wants C$1200 for new OEM cats. I guess I need to consider aftermarket options. Generic aftermarket cats would be about C$350 but I was hoping for something longer lasting. After calling 3 muffler shops I can't find anyone who will quote me on a better quality cat. There was a post a while back where someone went with an aftermarket option but a search did not work. Can anyone suggest what brands I should be considering or am I wasting my time?

    thanks
     
  2. ppc

    ppc M Go Blue

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    What was the impact of what you did on HC and CO?
     
  3. semlin

    semlin discouraged user

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    Phil

    Both CO and HC dropped off from 4 times average (but still a pass) to below average after the "special" treatment. The readings for these were consistently lower through the test and they actually plotted the results using a different scale from my earlier test printouts.

    I should also say the spike in hc and Co I mentioned in an earlier post disappeared. I believe the spike was triggered by the kickdown because I noticed that the first time the driver ran through the dyno test he hit the kickdown at that point but then over braked and had to restart. The second time he did it with no kickdown and there was no blip on the report.
     
  4. Pitbull

    Pitbull

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    That's weird, the testing they do where I live is to check your lights and your turn signals to see if they work. You could always move to the country like I did and get away from that testing BS.
     
  5. semlin

    semlin discouraged user

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    I wish. They have a 4 wheel dyno test here where they run your car at up to 60mph for 3 minutes. They plug the vin# into their computer and the dyno wheel base adjusts to fit your vehicle. Then they swing a tv in front of your truck and a big fan vent and some guy drives your truck looking at the video screen keeping the speed as close to a line indicator on the screen as he can. Cool technology, but not pleased with the result.
     
  6. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    Simon,

    I haven't done a search yet but my fast fading memory tells me the two common places for relatively inexpensive cats are:

    Summit Racing and
    Discount Converters.

    I recommend you read this page before you replace the cats. I don't have any other advice for you at this time.

    Sorry...
    -B-
     
  7. ppc

    ppc M Go Blue

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    I'm now currious to what those readings might have been previously on regular fuel given the test had done properly? It might have been closer to the average.

    To me it sounds like its narrowed down to O2 sensors or the cat as well. To replace both sensors is going to be roughly the same $$$ as replacing the cat. The O2 sensors do degrade over time and not remembering the mileage on your vehicle they may be falling into that window and might be needed in the short term after replacing the cat anyway. I have not heard of a cat degrading but failing as a result of excessive HC's causing a melt down and clogging but the O2 sensors being the cause of that. Therefore it may be prudent to replace the O2 sensors first and if that doesn't work then replace the cats if necessary. If you replace the cats and pass testing, over a short period the problem may come back because a symptom was only corrected and not the root cause.
     
  8. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    Phil's advice closely follows the advice on the link above.

    -B-
     
  9. Junk

    Junk

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    Semlin, go with the discount converters after you read their page that B linked. THey're cheap but decent. No offense to any Toyota Parts Mgrs that may happen to frequent this page, but there is no way those guys are getting that much money from me for it. I realize it's corporate Toy that set the prices, but those guys musta been smokin something the day they put these prices together. Either that or someone was decimal point challenged. :frickin eek:
     
  10. ppc

    ppc M Go Blue

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    [quote author=Beowulf link=board=2;threadid=12918;start=msg119034#msg119034 date=1078976699]

    Phil's advice closely follows the advice on the link above.

    -B-
    [/quote]

    I got to learn to type faster. There must have been 5 replies to the post while I was typing.

    After looking at the link that Beo gave one new thing comes to mind that we haven't discussed yet in these threads. The 93/94 models have whats called the PAIR system (pulsed secondary air injection system). It adds air into the exhaust to complete the burn. It should be active in normal driving below 3150 RPM's and during deacceleration. It is controlled by another one of those deadly VSV like used in the EGR system. Sounds like this may be something to pursue before the O2 sensors or the cat.
     
  11. semlin

    semlin discouraged user

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    Phil, would the PAIR system account for the NOX? I would have thought HC. You are correct that I have that system and I had a look at the vsv for pair when I replaced the vsv for egr but did not test it. I think the PAir connects to the charcoal cannister if I recall.

    B-wulf thanks for the links. That site does offer some good advice. I will keep pushing the dealer to confirm all the systems work before I pull the pin on a cat.

    That leads to another cat question or 2

    1. what is involved with changing a cat yourself? Can I do it with a bfh, wrenches and a tiny benzo torch or do I needs anything else? How many bananas. I have no exhaust work experience.

    2. does anyone know the dimensions on the cats for a 93 so I can figure out what might fit (mine are not available to measure)?
     
  12. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Moderator

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    I have a pair at work that I can measure tomorrow ;)
     
  13. ppc

    ppc M Go Blue

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    [quote author=semlin link=board=2;threadid=12918;start=msg119099#msg119099 date=1078980062]
    Phil, would the PAIR system account for the NOX? I would have thought HC. You are correct that I have that system and I had a look at the vsv for pair when I replaced the vsv for egr but did not test it. I think the PAIR connects to the charcoal cannister if I recall.

    [/quote]

    According to the Discount Converter site:


    Among the potential causes of non-compliant NOx readings are:

    Misfire condition
    Malfunctioning or improperly adjusted EGR valve
    Failed oxygen sensor
    Leak in exhaust tubing upstream of converter
    Excessive carbon deposits in combustion chamber
    Improper spark advance
    Blocked coolant passage
    Overly lean air-fuel mixture
    Damaged cold air duct
    Corroded or damaged engine sensor electrical connections



    If the PAIR was allowing air in exhaust when it shouldn't then it would be just like a leak. The PAIR connects into the exhaust with ~3/4 metal tubing and gets air from the air cleaner and hangs right where the supercharger would be mounted. There is another VSV that controls the vacuum to the charcoal canister.
     
  14. DRTDuck

    DRTDuck

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    Here's two options I saved from other posts:

    1.) Replaced Cat - Dynomax Highflow (OBD II compliant) $120.00,Needed roughly 4" pipes each end since it was shorter than stock double cats.

    2.) Single Catco Catalytic Convertor #9513 - dual inlet / single outlet

    I just remember whomever used them saying they fit well, don't know anything else about them.

    You also might want to check www.kansascityconverters.com
     
  15. robbie

    robbie Guest

    We hear at slee are not an emission certified shop and do not have the test equipment that these shops have. I have had 3 customers that have failed because of high Nox. After the first one went and spent money to have a diagnosis on their truck else where and could not figure it out came back. We installed one new O2 sensor (95 model year) and it cured the problem. Now the computer show the O2 sensor was in parmeters but was a little slow. The other two trucks were 94 that had the same problem not passing Nox and after looking at other stuff (like egr and O2 sensor out put (with VOM)), we replaced both O2 sensors and the trucks passed the emissions. So you can go the cat route or replace the sensors first. I believe you will pass. I have not seen where or when You have replaced your o2 sensors but if they have 40-50k miles or more this may be your problem. Just my esxperence so far with the newer (here in denver area) Nox requirements. later Robbie
     
  16. landtoy80

    landtoy80

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    I got this from Fred in VA.
    Where's Fred?

    Hey, I just read your post on the SOR forum about converters on your cruiser. At 103000 my check engine light kept coming on with a code for the cats being bad. I live in Northern Virginia and we have emissions testing and they wont even look at a car that has a check engine light on so I thought I had to sell one of my kids to get new converters. I found Kansas City Converters on the web and for 400 and change they sent me OEM rebuilt converters that were exactly like mine, painted real nice and a large box with prepaid shipping to send my old ones back to them. Had my dealer install for around 150 dollars. A week later I replaced the front O2 sensor on the dealers recomendation and with all new parts (no rust,etc) this took me 15 min. 15000 later and no problems to report. I have a 95 with OME med and 295 Nitto Terra Grapplers.
     
  17. Eduardo96FZJ80

    Eduardo96FZJ80

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    Semlin,
    I haven't had to deal with a bad cat on the 80, but when the cat went out (due to bad O2 sensor, :doh:) on my 62, I found an outfit here in town, that sent them to Los Angeles and had them cut open and rebuilt.
    good luck
     
  18. semlin

    semlin discouraged user

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    Wow thanks guys. I am going to try the o2 sensors and then KCconverters. C-Dan an email is coming!

    They tested the o2 sensors today and report they appear fine except that one is only generating .86 peak voltage while the other is .96 volts (coiuld be millivolts). Anyway, they say that spec is .9 but they doubt that this one is bad. I assume if you replace one you need to replace both?

    The dealer also called the emissions poeple and discussed my test results with them (including the fact I used the guaranteed to pass stuff on the latest test!!! -thanks Mr. T). The emissions guys think the cats are "working but not performing to spec" based on their own statistical tracking of failure explanations with certain results. I guess at 135k it is possible that one or both of the cats is losing its oomph or maybe contaminated?

    anyway thanks again.
     
  19. landtoy80

    landtoy80

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    semlin, what are they testing to get .9V?
    My 94 FSM doesn't show this test. I didn't think there was much different between the 93 and 94, maybe there is.
     
  20. Sandman

    Sandman

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    Semlin, I am Fred from Northern VA. I have been lurking here and the SOR board for years. Have been soaking up info from this site and applying it. Great Stuff. I finally decided to register just the other day. I am sorry to hear about your emission woes. My 95 with 125K just passed emissions once again so I guess my KC converters are still converting properly. I was actually a little surprised as the last "tune-up" was at 90k. If you do get the KC converters and try to install them yourself make sure you get all the gaskets, nuts and bolts new. When the dealer did mine there were a bunch of little parts on the bill that they used, not much $. I assumed that after 8 years it was just easier to cut off the nuts than to reuse them etc. Funny thing..I can't even type the words "cut off the nuts" with out having an urge to protect my groin.