More on Diesel Turbos...water-cooled?

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Are water-cooled turbos necessary for diesel engines? If not, is an oil-cooler required? Some say no that EGT's to not get high enough to be a concern, others say yes water-cooling is 100% necessary to extend bearing life. What's your opinion? Downsides of water-cooled turbos (besides cost)?

On a side note, I have been looking at turbo kit for a while now, particularly at Safari, AXT, TurboGlide, Capa( Pretty sure kit is supplied by MTQ). Here is what I have found in case others are interested (all for the 1HZ):

Safari: Garrett T3/T4 hybrid, water-cooled, includes redesigned manifold. - $2900AU (~$2200 USD).

AXT: "Custom" Garrett, water-cooled, includes redesigned manifold. - $2900AU (~$2200 USD).

CAPA (MTQ): Mitsu TD05H, water-cooled, includes redesigned manifold. - $3040AU (~$2300US).

TurboGlide: Garrett GT28, water-cooling optional, uses stock manifold w/ adapter plate. - $2390AU (~$1800US) for standard fluid bearing non water-cooled GT28 + $600AU (~$450US) for Ball Bearing GT28 + $120AU (~$90US) for water-cooled = $3110AU (~$2340US)

I am kinda leaning toward the Turboglide right now. For about the same price as the other kits, i can get a BB GT28 (a much nicer turbo IMO). Only difference is that is uses the stock manifold.

Anyway, water cooled or not water-cooled? Ball bearing or floating bearing? why?
 
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crushers

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seriously, get a custom turbo and make your own adapter, less than $40 for pressure and return lines and some exhaust work. well under $1800 CND and you are ready to rock...
water cooled is recommended if you want to shut the engine down quickly, so i was told.
i have been running just oil fed with no water cooling...

KISS principal comes into play...
cheers
 
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Water cooled is a luxury and not necessary, especially on a low boost turbo like one of these. Most diesels have oil cooled turbos only, including most new ones such as Holset etc including my Cummins. Oil cooled.. All turbos are at least "oil cooled" as they need the oil to lubricate the turbo. What this means is there is not an additional provision to cool other than water and air around the housing... However many sports cars and performance vehicles do have water cooling, such as Volvos from the late 80's and later. Ball bearing is also not required, especially again in one of these low boost low performance (by turbo standards) settings. Fabrication skills required though. Honestly I would not worry about any of this too much but I have no experience with either of these either, other than a homebrew trubo setup myself which I was into for less than $500 (shoot probably more like $200-$300) and a weekend... If you are planning on keeping the engine a long long time then one of the kits might be nicer, I dunno...
 
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Looking back again I would say get something with its own manifold. I made my own adapter (seen here: http://cruisers.shoumatoffmedia.com/hj60turbosetup.html ) but after I did that I started reading quite a bit about how a manifold designed for a turbo is much better than one where they are all grouped together and adapted suchas mine and the turbo glide. As for the actual trubo itself, is should not really matter as they are all good, the mitsu and the garretts etc. What actually matters more is the housing and how well it's cast in relation to the turbo aka how well it makes it spin. FWIW... But again, in a low boost application like the ones mentioned it really is not going to matter much all within a lb of boost or two I imagine and that might be the only difference. See if you can find some data that says where the boost kicks in on the RPM curve and see if you can find any data on total boost. My 2H turbod ran about 5-6 lbs on flats and upto 10 on the hills and it made a big difference and I don't think it affected longevity at all with those relatively low boost levels...
 

Tapage

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Some month ago I get a quote from Kodiak Motors - AXT dealer for a 2H Turbo Kit .. it cost about 3000 USD ..
 
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Just heard back from AXT:

Dear Sir
The turbo is a custom built unit using a Garrett water cooled chra ( centre housing rotating assembly ) with special housings manufactured by AXT and developed to match the 1 HZ engine which will improve performance by 35 % to 40 % , the kit is priced @ $ Aud $ 2900 and if you care to advise your location we would be pleased to quote firm freight charges via DHL
Regards
Daryl Aston
I think a diesel would benefit from a ball bearing turbo's quicker spool-up. I hope to work my way up to around 15lbs of boost after the necessary preparations. I guess I just doubt the efficiency of these redesigned manifolds. Do you really think they make a noticeable difference or is that money better spent on a nicer turbo?

The only reason I am considering a kit v.s. custom is ease/time of install. As a DD i really don't want to take it off the road for an extended period of time while I work out any problems i may run into. With a kit, you know you will pretty much have everything you need. Turboglide seems to be the best compromise between kit and custom. The IC will definitely be custom.
 
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Ball bearing again is a performance issue. It will have very little difference in the real world and what will affect the actual spool up is flat out how the turbo is designed in regards to its housing, whether it uses its own manifold or not - this is what affects how quickly and when the turbo sppols up. For example with my Cummins they sell different diameter housings to control when and how powerfully the turbo spools up. You will not have this luxury with your AXT or whatever kit you end up with so this is where it matters how they designed it. That said maybe the turbo glide kit is the way to go, I don't know... Maybe you should subcribe to the DTLC list and see if any of the Aussies have any real world experience with the different kits and can help guide you. Send an email to majordomo@helios.net with "subscribe DTLC" in the subject line. I think that is right, I have not been on that email list in a long time. I think whatever you end up with will work fine and you will be happy... Even a homebrew setup if you choose the right turbo. It is just my opinion but I would not put a lot of boost through an IDI engine but that is just my $.02 with very little actual knowledge of that engine other than looking at one a few times... Andre
 

dieseldog

She idles just fine . . .
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Water-cooled is a "nice to have" thing; however, definitely not necessary. Just make it your practice to let your truck run for a couple of minutes after you reach your destination (listen to a song or whatever) and you'll never have a problem. Having a turbo that is not water-cooled certainly makes for a simpler installation.
 
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Now you guys have me going back custom.... :rolleyes: If i went the "custom" route, I can get a new Garrett GT28, BB, water-cooled, (similar spec as Turboglide) for about $1200 USD.

where can I get everything else? Fittings/Lines? intake plumbing?

And KRD out of Japan makes some sexy tube-style turbo headers....


*sigh* y'all are no help :D
 
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You need to pick up a couple of books on design and installation of turbos. I have the book called "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell. It's a really good book on turbo design and install. Mostly based on gas engines but the principles are the same (other than the don't boost too much if you want to use street fuel part).
 

brownbear

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I agree with wayne. go to a custom kit,

make your own manifold

http://www.jgstools.com/turbo/index2.html

going custom doesn't have to be a junker. you can get the engine calculations done, and get the exact turbo you need based on the airflow and such.

all the fittings are about 40 bucks, some exhaust work 200, turbo new...1200-1400, manifold kit unsure...

go with a used junker, maybe one of those smaller holsets, or a v6 turbo. 200 bucks for a nice very good condition junker.

as far as water cooled. why bother? unless you just come off the highway and were at higher boost, your not that hot, so you could shut right down. nothing wrong with idling for 30 seconds or so, stabilize the turbines and housing.

I plugged my water fittings. just couldn't be bothered. too many diesels run with out was my theory.
 

brownbear

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oh and the pathways do not have to be equal on the manifold. there is nothing wrong with an adapter on the end of your stock manifold. my 13b-t stock manifold is not equal, the two center outlets are closer than the end ones. that ugly thing in that picture is a waste.

main objective all exhaust flows thru the turbo, that will happen if the turbo is half way under the car or on the engine. figuritively speaking eh?

I am sure equal may be better, but if mr Yota ain't equal..............then it can't matter a whole lot.
 

Tapage

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Water cooled .. ? in my opinion .. we don't need it. we know about the care for a turbo setup, we know how much time the turbo need to be cool ... ( not necesary cold ) I thought if you gona drive hard for a couple of hours, before reach your final destiny, dry slow .. the last what 5 km . ? under 2000 rpm you can safe your turbo, and when you finay reach you destiny, you can shutoff your TLC safe and easy.

No idle time needed.

Just my 5 cents
 
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You all may not be too big on water cooling and just because new diesel vehicles are not water cooled doesn't mean it's not a good idea. Most oils will burn at less that 300F creating soot which decreases bearing clearances and eventually ruins them. My turbo is almost always operating at a higher temperature than 300F. I want to ENSURE that the bearings of my turbo remain as cool as possible at all times. If running a couple of water lines help with that then I'm all for it. It's faster to run a couple of water lines now that rebuild the turbo later! Coked turbo bearings (due to burned oil residue buildup) is the number 1 killer of turbos.
My AXT is oil and water and I've hooked up both. Rarely is the time when I simply shut down after driving. It usually takes a few seconds to get my pyrometer down to 350F or so which is what I'm looking for prior to shutdown.
 

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