Builds Moonshine - A Build Thread (11 Viewers)

[GLTHFJ60]

In the 60 series forum, I've been preaching for a while that an 80 series box can be bolted onto a (late model 60, post 10/84 production) 60, yet I had not done it yet. Picked up an 80 box from @mel lowe at the Relic Run and am just now putting it on.

80 series box on the left, 60 series box on the right (no, I don't have that mixed up, yes, my 60 series box has an 80 series pitman arm on it). The 80 series box is about 1" longer towards the firewall and about 1/4" taller towards the hood, but she fits in the 60 just fine. It's hard to tell, but the 80 series box has a larger power piston, meaning it provides better steering assist.

60 series box detail:

80 series box detail:

Now when installing, you need to make sure to install the steering shaft before the box gets bolted in or else there isn't enough room in the steering shaft to collapse far enough to get it on:. Also, you need to pry up on the fender a little bit to let the box rotate in:

And there you have it. You can see that the bolts on top of the box straddle the lip of the fender. It's tight, but she fits without touching.

Next up, ream new pitman arm, MC/prop valve replacement, hydroboost replacement, maybe run a new front brake line, install PS cooler, bleed brakes and steering system, then this round is over. Got some things in the works to get moonshine some more traction aiding devices this fall

 

[Cruiserdrew]

Nice, but the 80 box will only fit 4/85 (possibly 10/84 up) and up FJ60s. Earlier FJ60s have a square bolt pattern mount, later ones have a slight offset of one of the corner bolts.

So is the motor working again? I missed that, but good work.

 

[woytovich]

Are you theorizing that the 80 box offers more "power" or are there some PSI/volumetric figures to back that up? It sure SEEMS like it is "better" than the 60 box based on your observation(?) of a "larger" power piston.

Any indication the pump on an 80 series puts out higher PSI? If so if one were to switch to a Saginaw pump then maybe the 80 box would handle that extra pressure better.

 

[Cruiserdrew]

A bigger power piston even at the same pressure will provide more assist.

80 boxes twist sector shafts more often for the same reason-more force on the shaft.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Nice, but the 80 box will only fit 4/85 (possibly 10/84 up) and up FJ60s. Earlier FJ60s have a square bolt pattern mount, later ones have a slight offset of one of the corner bolts.

So is the motor working again? I missed that, but good work.

Correct on the box application. Late 60s, I should have specified that.

Motor never stopped working, it's just producing blow by. I need to do the manometer test that was shared by @J Mack but she still runs great.

Are you theorizing that the 80 box offers more "power" or are there some PSI/volumetric figures to back that up?

I'm not talking about the 80 series power steering PUMP, I'm talking about the box, so I'm going to disregard the section of your post about the 80 series PS pump because I don't know. The 80 series box puts out more steering assist and that's a fact, not a theory. Continue reading for explanation.

Take a 60 series steering box apart. Look at the power piston. The surface area of the piston multiplied by the pressure (per square inch, whatever it is) will result in the total force that the piston can produce. Basic hydraulics.

Take an 80 series steering box apart. Look at the power piston and how it's larger than the one in the 60 series box. Run the same calculation. More force for a given PSI due to the larger surface area of the power piston (regardless of whatever the PSI is).

Let's say you keep your power steering pump the same (whatever it is). Put a steering box behind it with a larger power piston than what you had before (for example, swapping a 60 series box for an 80 series box). You will have more steering assist because the larger power piston is capable of producing more force. You may have a *slower* assist unless your pump can keep up with the volume requirements of the new steering box.

This is the same line of thinking when you add ram assist. You're adding a second power steering piston (the ram) to the system to get more steering assist. The reason you get more steering assist is because in addition to the surface area of the power piston in the steering box, you now also have the surface area of the power piston in the steering ram, which allows you to put out more force. The only reason people put the ram on the axle is because there's so much more force that it would break the pitman arm / TRE / knuckle if you put all that extra force through the steering box alone.

In conclusion, due to the fact that the 80 series steering box has a larger power piston than the 60 series steering box, swapping to a 80 series box on a late 60 series truck will give you more steering assist.

Let me know if I need to clarify further.

 

[woytovich]

Thanks Johnny... just wanted to know more - not challenging you...

 

[cruisermatt]

So your Cummins pump is basically a gear-driven version of a classic Saginaw, right? It sure looks that way. If so, looking forwards to hearing how long the 80 sector shaft survives. I'm assuming the 80 pump puts out less PSI then the Saginaw/Cummins.
I'm looking at the Saginaw 240 pump and 80 box for mine as well.

Also consider 80 owners have reported sector shaft twist-age with "relatively stock" 80's...

And for anyone who hasn't driven Moonshine, turning 40" aired-down Swampers on pavement (150% traction) with the 60 box wasn't very difficult at all before...

 

[GLTHFJ60]

So your Cummins pump is basically a gear-driven version of a classic Saginaw, right? It sure looks that way. If so, looking forwards to hearing how long the 80 sector shaft survives. I'm assuming the 80 pump puts out less PSI then the Saginaw/Cummins.
I'm looking at the Saginaw 240 pump and 80 box for mine as well.

Also consider 80 owners have reported sector shaft twist-age with "relatively stock" 80's...

And for anyone who hasn't driven Moonshine, turning 40" aired-down Swampers on pavement (150% traction) with the 60 box wasn't very difficult at all before...

Correct, the Cummins power steering pump is indeed just a Saginaw "P" type pump with a funky adapter and a press-on gear.

Yeah, I know about the sector shaft problems. I wanted to wait till I had the $$ to replace the sector shaft with the 105 sector shaft, and even got a quote for the "kit" but just haven't had the money yet. It's only $400, but $400 I can't spend with the wedding coming up and all. If I didn't have an event in two weeks and didn't have the catastrophic steering pump failure that I did at GSMTR this would have waited till I could do the 105 sector shaft upgrade. Unfortunately I need moonshine up and running, which means this box is getting put on with the new pump and HB unit so that I don't ruin yet another pump with a leaky steering box.

 

[cruisermatt]

I hear ya. Now what's with that fluid all over the new box?

 

[GLTHFJ60]

There's no fluid all over the new box, that's gloss black paint

 

[Cruiserdrew]

While the sector shafts are a known failure point, it's often cheaper and better to just carry a spare steering box. Then if you do eventually manage to break the sector shaft, your down time for the upgrade is about 20 minutes.

I've wheeled my 80 a lot, sector shaft has survived, most recently all the way through the Rubicon. A spare box, solves your problems, saves you $400. And since you swapped to the 80 box already, your old box is your built in spare.

And, my "spare" 80 steering box has been lent out twice, solving other people's immediate problems, and simplifying trail repairs.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

That's not a bad idea to carry the old box as a spare. I'll need to clean it up, maybe put a seal or two in it.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Lots of work this week and I'm not done yet!!!

Drill press and drill press vice were purchased specifically for this job; reaming out the J8x pitman arm to the correct taper for Chevy ends. Glorious drill press.

Power steering cooler. This is a random transmission cooler from Amazon, fastened to the AC condenser. Remember kids, wear protection.

This finishes up the steering work. I filled the cooler by vacuuming the system with my mityvac after filling the PS reservoir. All I need to do is bleed the brakes.

Moved onto the intake work. Got tripped up because the original plan was to go straight over the valve covers. Unfortunately the flat plate intake has a slightly rectangular bolt pattern (that I didn't notice). Moved over to the 3" intake gear I have that was reserved for the intercooler install, but I was already in this far, soo here we go.

Original plan (didn't work):

New plan was to shorten this component to make it fit between the motor and master cylinder:

Also changed over the turbo connection to the compressor exhaust outlet elbow from a HX35:

Fab process:

Yeah baby, that'll work just fine:

Oooh yeah:

Little TIG action (I'm not good at Aluminum TIG @cruisermatt )

Ground smooth, filled inclusions, repeat, after done, smoothed it all out:

Little paint, looks AWESOME:

Time to order some intercooler boots and whatnot, then will be back in action.

 

[DerfO4]

Nice work dude.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Since I had to change up my intake plan, I had to place a new order from siliconeintakes.com. Nailed it on the first try:

The problem when putting together custom boost tubing is that sometimes you have to shorten/lengthen the tubes, which leaves you with an end that doesn't have the flare. The flare (or bead) helps the clamp keep the boot attached firmly. Without the flare, you can blow boots off the tubes at high pressure which causes issues. Saw a really clever solution in a youtube video and I tell ya, it works like a champ.

Buy a pair of dykes with a crimper built in. Cut off the dyke part and smooth it over. Boom, beading tool:

Take your cut tube:

Crimp along the rim, using the throat of the crimping tool to control your depth:

Works perfect!! Rinse and repeat:

New engine bay look:

Had to build a little bracket to hold the crossover tube in place. Eventually the crossover tube will go away and both sides will be connected to an intercooler.

Through research, I discovered that with the Chevy truck master cylinders, the port closest to the firewall is for the front brake circuit and the port closest to the radiator is for the rear brake circuit. That means that I had my brakes hooked up backwards before, and have for the past few years. Partially explains the soft pedal and confirms that I am a moron

ROCK HARD pedal now. Excellent stopping power, holy crap. Proportioning valve to adjust the rear brakes.

Oil change fail for good measure:

Back in business!! Need to swap out to my swampers so we can go wheeling in a week

 

[cruisermatt]

Dude, I TOLD you I thought it had a softer pedal then it should!

 

[woytovich]

Crimping = Kung Fu Grip Johnny!

 

[The Phoenician]

i used my teeth , wish i thought of the crimpers . Great job man.

 

[wheelin62]

Awesome flaring tool!! I will be doing that to mine! Thanks!!

 

[klinetime574]

I think your welds look great. Don't take negativity from Matt!

Good work Johnny