Might have found my rig's problem (1 Viewer)

[allen_ajones]

I found this post that Doug wrote, and I think I know what my rig's problem is. When I first bought my FZJ80 at 93K (it now has 180K) I had the differentials drained and refilled. Guess what came out of the front diff? Freaking poop. That was the consistency of the sludge that came out of that box. I have howl, whine, whirring, and rumble (think big propeller plane) noise in addition to the other woes of vibration typically associated with driveshafts (I had the ujoints replaced but made my vibration worse because the second mechanic told the first one really beat on the DS and ujoints...they actually laughed about how bad it looked). When I let off the gas, there is almost no coast. Just pretty abrupt decrease in speed and acts like a manual transmission where I have accelerated to the top of the gear and then let off the gas, that is how abrupt the change in speed is. Problem was the "bad" drive line shop guy told me about the front diff but lost credibility by introducing a new noise and worsening a vibration problem by trying to put on new ujoints and beating the hell out of the DS and ujoinits in the process.


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Ken,

Sorry to kinda start you at ground zero here, but did this whine exist before you guys did the front axle repack and all the work - in other words did you buy it this way?

Other than the usual faint whining and whirring of a bunch o' gears on the 80s I've had/driven (lots), the only true whine that was loud enough to be a concern was a front diff. The owner had persistently let the front diff get low due to not keeping the front axle seals in shape and the high pinion design caused it to suffer first as it's high in the diff. Frankly, it was tough to discern where the noise was and I could have easily been convinced it was the center diff because of the way sound travels through metal. I used the patented method of duct taping a length of garden hose to each major component as I took it for a quick spin and in 15 minutes there was no question about the front diff being the source.

DougM

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so, now thr LC sits parked until I can pay for these repairs and parts. I wish someone in SAn Diego that is a cruisehead, could help me out. Pizza beer, dinner, $$, whatever.. I just need a break. ANyone out there?

Also, CDAN or anyone who knows, do the Toyota differentials come as an entire preassembled unit? meaning the carrier and pinion bearings, ring and pinion gears, all misc parts such as pinion flange (cause I heard you might as well do that when replacing ujoints), seals, etc..

 

[Cruiserdrew]

Allen-I wouldn't sweat this too much. At worse, you may need to buy a new ring and pinion set, but that's $200 or so. The bearing kit is another $125, and the labor to set the diff up is another $150. So for $500 or so you are back on the road good as new. The R&P may still be good, so you are back on the road even cheaper.

Remember it's usually the pinion bearing that craps out and makes noise. The key will be to pull the diff yourself. That's just grunt work-ie not highly skilled. Take the diff to a shop that specializes in differentials. Take their advice about whether a new R&P is needed, have them rebuild and drive on.

If the rest of the front axle was recently repaired, you will still want to replace the inner axle seals while it is apart. That's and easy and quick job once the disassembly is done.

 

[Boston Mangler]

so, now thr LC sits parked until I can pay for these repairs and parts. I wish someone in SAn Diego that is a cruisehead, could help me out. Pizza beer, dinner, $$, whatever.. I just need a break. ANyone out there?

I am in San Diego (clairemont area) and like both pizza and beer! I am working on my rig all day tomorrow in my driveway. Shoot me a PM if you want to bring it by and i will check it out! I am no expert but am willing to check it out and see if anything jumps out at me.

Also, CDAN or anyone who knows, do the Toyota differentials come as an entire preassembled unit? meaning the carrier and pinion bearings, ring and pinion gears, all misc parts such as pinion flange (cause I heard you might as well do that when replacing ujoints), seals, etc..

Yes, they are available as a whole unit (elockers are about $850 ready to bolt in, not sure on non lockers, probably much cheaper)! This is a great time to go to elocker if you dont have them already!

Depending on your wrenching level, it might be best to just buy a complete third. Most shops here charge up the wazzzoooo to set up a ring and pinion and it is beyond the level of a 1 banana guy.

Drew is correct in that you will save some $ pulling it yourself. Its fairly easy (but messy) to do that and i can lend a hand if needed. This is also a good time to do your birfs and such!

Hit me with a PM if you want to swing by tomorrow AM

 

[Eduardo96FZJ80]

I am in ...

the area,but of little help on this one. The most I have done to my front end is Rotors

 

[allen_ajones]

HEre is the problem cruiserDrew, I don't have the tool or know how to tackle that. I have to take to someone.

That is pretty cheap: "a new ring and pinion set, but that's $200 or so. The bearing kit is another $125, and the labor to set the diff up is another $150. So for $500 or so you are back on the road good as new."

Are those Toyota parts? Do you get your parts from CDAN? Because people werer talking 800+ just for parts.

Basically, where did you get those numbers?

 

[Boston Mangler]

Are those Toyota parts? Do you get your parts from CDAN? Because people werer talking 800+ just for parts.

Thats nuts, the whole 3rd is about $850 +/- ready to bolt in!

 

[Boston Mangler]

Hey Allen

Your PM box is full!

Email me: speicher "at" san.rr.com

 

[Cruiserdrew]

HEre is the problem cruiserDrew, I don't have the tool or know how to tackle that. I have to take to someone.

That is pretty cheap: "a new ring and pinion set, but that's $200 or so. The bearing kit is another $125, and the labor to set the diff up is another $150. So for $500 or so you are back on the road good as new."

Are those Toyota parts? Do you get your parts from CDAN? Because people werer talking 800+ just for parts.

Basically, where did you get those numbers?

I've gone through this on 3 Land Cruisers and the numbers are pretty close. The ring and pinion is likely still good. Do not order one unless the original one is bad. If you need a new one, call Kurt at Cruiseroutfitters. Ask him to include the bearing kit and a Toyota pinion seal. The alternative is to use Precision Gears, that's what I've always used with good results. The Ring and Pinion set is about $200. I'm hoping you just need bearings. The gear set up is fairly complex-have a differential shop do that. I'm sure the Mangler can help you getting the diff off the truck, and the knuckles rehabbed.. You could also let your diff shop supply the bearing kits. CruiserDan would also be a good source of the bearings, crush sleave and seal.

We are spoiled here in Sac by our local diff shop River City Differentials. He does awesome work, usually same day and is a super good guy besides. He is even a Toyota 4 wheeler and knows the Toyota diffs inside and out. I'd tell you to drive up here, but that's out of the question.

Good luck, and take lots of pics. If you pay someone to do this whole job turnkey, it will be very expensive. Do as much of the job yourself that you can. Other Cruiserheads will help you through it-Take the Mangler up on his offer, it sounds like he'll take good care of you.

 

[allen_ajones]

Yeah BM, I just cleaned it out. Send me a PM.

 

[allen_ajones]

CruiserDrew. I am pretty skeered.

can you pull the diff (what is included in the diff?) and still leave the ring and pinion gears in the front end still connected to the driveshafts, etc.?

 

[allen_ajones]

I've gone through this on 3 Land Cruisers and the numbers are pretty close. The ring and pinion is likely still good.

what do you think the slowing action when I let off the gas is attributed to:
1.) worn teeth that affects the coast side of the ring or
2.) bad carrier and pinion bearings?

 

[allen_ajones]

He guys thanks for your input. I am leaving work for now. So if I don't reply is because I on the road. Really it seems like I have multiple problems: third member and hangover problems from rear DS and ujoint replacement that seems to have not gone anywhere near they way it should have gone. Hey Boston, do you know how to pull a drive shaft in order to see it is a spline off?

 

[PHAEDRUS]

Allen,
Look at the drive shaft and it will become apparent what it is doing, as far as the u joints go chances are the ass hat who worked on it put the joints in phase, rotate the output flange form the t case 180 degreees and see if this helps. I do think you have a third memeber issue but the out of phase drive shaft is an easy fix.

 

[Cruiserdrew]

CruiserDrew. I am pretty skeered.

can you pull the diff (what is included in the diff?) and still leave the ring and pinion gears in the front end still connected to the driveshafts, etc.?

No. To pull the diffs, you must disassemble the knuckle, pull the axle shafts, detach the driveshaft, take out the nuts that hold the 3rd member to the axle and pull out the whole assembly. It's easier than it sounds. It will be useful to you to have someone who has done it before, supervise the work, but none of it is hard. It's a heavy MOFO, so when it comes out, support it with a jack or eat your wheaties that morning.

If you drive the rig to a shop, they will charge you $2000+ to do this work. Don't do that unless there is no other choice.

The slowing action is weird. I'm not sure that's the diff at all. That sounds like something binding. What kind of shape are the wheelbearings in? BM said he would eyeball it. Do that for sure. Make certain the front diff is bad before you dig into it. When you drain the oil, are there any chunks of metal? Maybe the diff is just full of old grease. There is lots of cheap stuff to do before you start spending money. You need an accurate diagnosis to begin the proper repair.

Does everything else seem ok, like the tranny and t-case? Any weird noises? Do you have trouble getting up to speed? You arn't accidently in low range or something like that?

As I said before, if it's just a rumbling or whining noise in the front diff, you may get lucky and just have a bad pinion bearing. I've had that exact scenerio twice. Once in the 40 and once in the 60. Both times the R&P was fine. I was regearing anyway, so no big deal.

 

[Mickldo]

CruiserDrew. I am pretty skeered.

can you pull the diff (what is included in the diff?) and still leave the ring and pinion gears in the front end still connected to the driveshafts, etc.?

The diff they are talking about is the third member. It is the large cast metal pumpkin bolted in the centre of the diff housing that has the driveshaft bolted to it. The third member is taken out as a complete unit once the front axles/birfields are removed. The third member is made up of a heap of smaller components that all mesh together. These include the ring and pinion, bearings, carrier, spider gears. If you plan at any stage in the future to install lockers now is the time to do it as you will basically have to redo the job to do it later.

 

[Boston Mangler]

Hey Boston, do you know how to pull a drive shaft in order to see it is a spline off?

Yeah, supereasy, we can use mine as a reference. I sure hope homeboy the ujoint installer didnt pull the shaft apart and rotate the splines, no need for that! but if thats the problem, thats a good thing, cause it is a cheap and easy fix!

we can check it out tomorrow

 

[Mickldo]

If it's only a spline out the uni joints won't be in alignment. They should be exactly in the same plane.

 

[allen_ajones]

So what you are saying is, if it is spline off, we cannot just rotate to the proper position because the ujoints have to pulled off and installed back in?

 

[IdahoDoug]

No, if it's a spline off it's 4 bolts and 10 minutes to fix.

I'm concerned about the binding. Obviously I'd know a lot more if the truck were in front of me, but this sounds like your center diff is engaged or locked on and your front and rear tires are different diameters. If that's the case, your front diff might be riding on the coast side simply due to constant axle windup. In other words the rears are pushing the fronts and that binding is what you feel upon gas pedal release. What happens if you turn slowly in a full lock turn on gravel? Does it feel like the tires are under tension and/or skipping or scuffing in the gravel, or will the truck do this smoothly and silently?

DougM

 

[allen_ajones]

The thing is a had a whirring noise, and the same let off the gas with no coast, as well as the shimy shake side to side for a long time. It just added new a rumble noise and vibration the are totally in synchronization to aforementioned symptons.

But I will definitely be looking for some gravel to perform your test. It bums me because my OME replacement coils that I bought in 2003 with matching shocks are totally shot or too soft. I just replaced the shocks a few months sgo probably year too late. Any ideas for stock height coils?. As I recall the OEM replacement regular ride height were a little stiffer than OEM