Methanol Injection: What Are The True Performance Gains? (2 Viewers)

[NLXTACY]

here is something I'd like to see.

Get on the highway in 2nd gear and record the timing through the OBDII port at WOT.

At 4800 rpms I'm at 40* btdc, with the stock timing adjustment

I don't think you guys are near that high.

Alright I'll post up a video of it tomorrow. I have the stock SC pulley, no meth and only ever run 91.

 

[inkpot]

The Snow Peak Stage 2 MAF kit isn't the way to go? Not sure how I can improve on it.

I meant some kind of kit to modify the stock timing curve so it would not pull back south?

 

[Iceaxe]

Ok, I'm going to throw a bowl of worms onto the kitchen table...

ECU Tuning options

Acknowledging the above thread on this topic... I am in the process of installing the Stage II Snow Performance meth injection kit. I would like to know the answers to (seemingly) simple questions:

1. How do you tune our rigs?
2. Is there any plug and play chip to enable us to remap our ECUs?

 

[scottryana]

1. Stand alone ECU
2. No

 

[Iceaxe]

1. Stand alone ECU
2. No

Ok, now for the really dumb question-
How do you tune with a standalone ECU? By "standalone ECU", do you mean the ECU that came with the truck?

 

[dogfishlake]

A stand alone ecu like a Wolf, or Mega squirt, or Haltech, etc that usually is tuned by others like at a dyno facility. I'm hoping to pull the trigger on one myself for my 80, possibly the Wolf because it has a plug and play harness (still needs to be tuned at the dealer cause they set up the transmission too). Kind of got pushed back for me, trying to rebuild the big block in my chevelle and it's sucking $$ and time

 

[Iceaxe]

Dogfish lake, thanks for the clarification. Damned expensive option to go that route.....!

 

[dogfishlake]

Dogfish lake, thanks for the clarification. Damned expensive option to go that route.....!

I agree. Really, I don't think it's necessary unless you throw a bunch of mods that the stock ecu can't handle-especially higher boost. There is still limited information out there on options for life after the stock ecu. @scottryana 's thread and @lilevo 's thread are good reads. At the risk of being stoned by fellow mudders, I'm going to say I wish EMS Powered still existed because they did as much boost/engine management development as anyone and had a pretty good system worked out (I know, I had an EMS exhaust system too!).

 

[Iceaxe]

I guess I was looking at the standalone ECU as an option to get more power out of the rig once my meth kit is installed. Granted, my reason for installing it in the first place was to keep the system cool during the summer and avoid dets.

 

[scottryana]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record I am going to chime in again.

So really there are levels or stages that you can look at when you are taking just about any car and adding forced induction. I tried to lay that out a little in the turbo thread from a ways back but maybe I did a poor job.

In the case of the 80 series with OBDII here is how I see them....

Stage 1 - a TRD super charger or a turbo running close to the same amount of air, roughly enough to produce an extra ~70hp/50awhp.

This is the very beginning of forced induction, basically a set and forget setup that relies on the 80's extra rich fueling and stock timing cut.
​

Stage 2 - Taking the above and adding a smaller pulley or a stiffer wastegate spring to increase boost.

You are now starting to increase IAT's, you are possibly going to start running lean in areas of the fueling map, etc. This is where cooling the air charge with an intercooler and adding something like a water/meth kit to prevent detonation, increase octane, etc should be started.
​

Stage 3 - You want even more boost, you start leaving the ability of the stock fuel injectors behind.

You can do like lilevo did and scale a larger MAF to a larger fuel injector but that is not ideal. You can replace the fuel injectors and attempt to modify the O2 signal so that the truck thinks it is running lean when it is at stoch and add more fuel via longer injector pulse widths, or you can go with a stand alone to take control of the injectors, wideband and timing.
​

This is pretty much the extent of tuning an OBDII 80 series, the OBDI trucks are much different as they tend to run lean and even in what I wrote as my stage 1 above, they need quite a large amount of meth injection to make up for the lack of fueling they have when under boost. I knew at one time, but I no longer remember what size Cdan is running for his meth injection on his OBDI truck but it was clearly large enough not to be a charge air cooler but to be a fuel source.

 

[Iceaxe]

Scottryana, that explanation was five stars and helped me understand this MUCH better. Thanks so much.

 

[1973Guppie]

Hey Sacottryana, so for a stage 2 you mentioned:

Stage 2 - Taking the above and adding a smaller pulley or a stiffer wastegate spring to increase boost.
You are now starting to increase IAT's, you are possibly going to start running lean in areas of the fueling map, etc. This is where cooling the air charge with an intercooler and adding something like a water/meth kit to prevent detonation, increase octane, etc should be started.
so would you consider an intercooler and a water / meth addition to combat the same thing? i.e. higher IAT's?

I know lots of people may run both an intercooler and water / meth but individually aren't they doing the same thing, lowering IAT's? Just curious whether one or the other is better and how they differ from one another. I like the idea of possibly adding a smaller pulley and the snow meth kit in the future but don't want to do it if that is not enough and I have to end up running an intercooler.

 

[scottryana]

Water/meth injection can do the same thing as an intercooler but it also does much more. Both water and methanol when injected raise the octane rating of the fuel entering the combustion chamber preventing detonation, not to mention if you run a high enough percentage of methanol it is actually a fuel and can help in any areas that might be running a touch lean.

Conversely an intercooler does it's job without having to ever stop at a gas station and fill up the water/methanol tank. An air to air intercooler is just about the simplest most reliable charge air cooler for trucks driving at speed that you can get.

So yes they can fill the same roll, you can more than likely get by with just one of them. But which one you choose at least on an 80 series is going to come down to how much you favor convenience and if most of your boosted driving is on the hwy.

Hey Sacottryana, so for a stage 2 you mentioned:

Stage 2 - Taking the above and adding a smaller pulley or a stiffer wastegate spring to increase boost.
You are now starting to increase IAT's, you are possibly going to start running lean in areas of the fueling map, etc. This is where cooling the air charge with an intercooler and adding something like a water/meth kit to prevent detonation, increase octane, etc should be started.
so would you consider an intercooler and a water / meth addition to combat the same thing? i.e. higher IAT's?

I know lots of people may run both an intercooler and water / meth but individually aren't they doing the same thing, lowering IAT's? Just curious whether one or the other is better and how they differ from one another. I like the idea of possibly adding a smaller pulley and the snow meth kit in the future but don't want to do it if that is not enough and I have to end up running an intercooler.

 

[1973Guppie]

cool, thx for the explanation. I think if I do this I will just go with the meth injection. I like the idea of being able to remove everything easily for smog and not have any hassles, especially here in ca.

 

[Iceaxe]

Ok, I've installed the Stage II Snow meth kit. Here's where I'm at:

• TRD SC with 2.8" pulley. Snow's gauge is saying I max out at 5 PSI (I thought I was generating more than that, but so be it).
• I've blown through several 3qt reservoir tanks of washer fluid playing around with the injection mapping.
• Using the smallest nozzle that came with the kit (the one recommended for up to 350 hp).
• It's still winter-spring around here, where my engine temps never get above 190 deg, so I set the map to a spray coming on at 4 PSI and maxing at 10 PSI (in other words, not maximizing the spray at all). Still drawing down plenty of fluid. I'm probably going to go through two jugs of washer fluid per gas tank, but that's a guess at the moment.
• Performance-wise, the only thing I've noticed is a smoother climb up the long hills when at max boost. Able to maintain highway speeds better. In other words, only slightly noticeable.
• Never had problems with knock, and I did use scottyryana's suggest method of timing adjustment (How To Adjust Timing in the FJ80). My timing is not aggressive, but I might play around with it later.
• I can tell that I'm eventually going to want a much larger reservoir tank...
• I'll update this thread once it gets hotter and closer to Cruise Moab time.

Bottom line- I set up the meth kit for my own sense of conservative protection of the engine while running my SC to the limit of the boost I'm seemingly able to achieve (I think other folks are seeing higher PSI with a 2.8" pulley???). Last year's Cruise Moab was an eye opener in dealing with the propensity of these trucks to overheat, retard timing, and steal hard-won power from my SC. Thanks again to everyone for helping this noob understand all the 'stuff' involved. I'll update this thread once it gets hotter and closer to Cruise Moab time.