Matching Studs to 80 Hubs (1 Viewer)

[greentruck]

Obviously incorrect title. It should be "Matching Lugnuts to Fit 80 Alloy Rims"

Our M101 CDN trailer came with the hubs already converted to run Toyota LC wheels. I don't know for sure, but presume that these are Southwest Wheels, which offers conversion hubs for the 3500# axle on the M101. On the trailer were a pair of 6-hole chromed steel 15x6.5"wheels that I am told came off a FJ60. These had old-style lugnuts (13/16").

Went to the tire shop today to get new tires all around on the truck and trailer. The plan was to install new Toyota steel 16x8" wheels (5-hole) to replace the scruffy looking OEM alloys on the truck. The plan was to use the two best alloy rims to mount the two trailer wheels.

I already was prepared for a change in lugnuts on the truck, as CDan advised me that these required the old-style lugnuts instead of the alloy lugnuts with the attached washer. I assumed (bad idea) that the alloy rim lugnuts would fit the lugs on the conversion rims.

The problem was that the alloy lugnuts from the 80's hubs are a different pitch. They don't seem to be the wrong diameter. Since I was just going to take the trailer across town and garage it until the problem is solved, the shop was OK with using the original lugnuts that came with the trailer to hold the alloy rims on.

Has anyone else run into a similar problem? Gotta solution? I think I need to look for alloy lugnuts that fit an FJ60, but don't know if that is just another bad assumption

 

[offroad 80]

Obviously incorrect title. It should be "Matching Lugnuts to Fit 80 Alloy Rims"

Our M101 CDN trailer came with the hubs already converted to run Toyota LC wheels. I don't know for sure, but presume that these are Southwest Wheels, which offers conversion hubs for the 3500# axle on the M101. On the trailer were a pair of 6-hole chromed steel 15x6.5"wheels that I am told came off a FJ60. These had old-style lugnuts (13/16").

Went to the tire shop today to get new tires all around on the truck and trailer. The plan was to install new Toyota steel 16x8" wheels (5-hole) to replace the scruffy looking OEM alloys on the truck. The plan was to use the two best alloy rims to mount the two trailer wheels.

I already was prepared for a change in lugnuts on the truck, as CDan advised me that these required the old-style lugnuts instead of the alloy lugnuts with the attached washer. I assumed (bad idea) that the alloy rim lugnuts would fit the lugs on the conversion rims.

The problem was that the alloy lugnuts from the 80's hubs are a different pitch. They don't seem to be the wrong diameter. Since I was just going to take the trailer across town and garage it until the problem is solved, the shop was OK with using the original lugnuts that came with the trailer to hold the alloy rims on.

Has anyone else run into a similar problem? Gotta solution? I think I need to look for alloy lugnuts that fit an FJ60, but don't know if that is just another bad assumption

? what the what is the truck80 cruisers have 6 stud hub 12x1.50 thread and 100 crusier have 5 stud hub 14x1.5 thread

 

[greentruck]

OK, thanks for the info on the 80 studs. I'm now wondering if the presumed 60 studs are 1.25 pitch?

 

[Koffer]

if your running the same studs that came with the replacement hubs then they are a standard thread and pitch .
Thats why the new ones didnt fit .

I used some lug nuts for mag style wheels when I popped my later FZJ80 rims on mine .
I'll see if I can find the #s

I think these were them with just the reg washer (non offset )
Lug Nuts Wheel Adapters Wheel Spacers Lug Bolts
If you have a speed shop that sells older style mag wheels they can hook you up take the FZJ80 lug with you and the nut that fits the stud and show them what you want
these are not drive wheels so the slight difference between the metric and standard on the shank are not a issue .
Ive been running mine with these for over 4 years now with no problems what so ever and have had over 2500#s in it .
Pix is of 100, 40lbs of wood pellets in truck and trailer , made those J springs ride smooth

 

[offroad 80]

OK, thanks for the info on the 80 studs. I'm now wondering if the presumed 60 studs are 1.25 pitch?

nope toyota have always had 12x1.50 thread nissan have 12x1.25 thread

 

[greentruck]

Very interesting. I presume that Nissan uses the same 6x5.5" bolt pattern as Toyota?

If so, that explains the confusion. Maybe I have adapter drums that are actually for Nissan and I just need to order the correct ones for Toyota?

 

[Koffer]

Very interesting. I presume that Nissan uses the same 6x5.5" bolt pattern as Toyota?

If so, that explains the confusion. Maybe I have adapter drums that are actually for Nissan and I just need to order the correct ones for Toyota?

I would take your lug that fits to a hardware store and use the thread / pitch do-dad
to see what you have but I'm betting on then being a 1/2" x20 thread per inch as the replacement hubs for these trailers are standard studs and not metric studs

 

[greentruck]

Koffer,
Yeah, that may be it. At Southwest, they only list this hub (which I believe is the one on our M101) by drum size and bolt pattern.
https://www.southwestwheel.com/store/p-247-l0655lb3e.aspx

It says nothing at all about stud sizes/thread pitch for any of their adapter hubs. So I'm going to grab one of the lugnuts and see what that matches up to.

I don't care if it's metric or English, I just don't want the wheels flying off

And it's not like the first time someone stuck 80 alloy rims on a M101, so I'm sure I'll come up with some sort of solution.

 

[Koffer]

Koffer,
Yeah, that may be it. At Southwest, they only list this hub

It says nothing at all about stud sizes/thread pitch for any of their adapter hubs. So I'm going to grab one of the lugnuts and see what that matches up to.

I don't care if it's metric or English, I just don't want the wheels flying off

And it's not like the first time someone stuck 80 alloy rims on a M101, so I'm sure I'll come up with some sort of solution.

Heres the info on the lugs they use with these drums
https://www.southwestwheel.com/store/showproduct.aspx?ProductID=3122&SEName=cc30822

They are what I thought 1/2" x20s

 

[greentruck]

Todd,
Went by the hardware store and confirmed that the lugs on the hub conversio drums are indeed 1/2-20 thread. Then NAPA had some of these in the shank style I need to use with the 80's alloy rims. Will swap things this evening.

The only fly in the ointment is that the washer supplied with the NAPA lug nuts is smaller than the washer attached to the 80 lug nuts. I don't think this will be an issue, as it should bear on the wheel properly, unlike the chamfer on the regular lug nuts currently on the trailer.

 

[greentruck]

Had a chance to get one side done. They fit well and the smaller washer doesn't seem to be an issue. The nut is a little smaller volume than the Toyota alloy shank nuts, consequently there's not as much bearing surface. Uses the same 13/16" axis of the four-way lug wrench. Works with the Toyota alloy rims that require this style nut, but a couple of concerns.

There is one thing I wasn't sure on and that's torque. On LandCruiser studs with these rims, it's 76 ftlbs. But the trailer hub studs are smaller, I think. I started off going with 76 as the setting, but it didn't seem to be feeling right (stretchy) and I didn't want to break a stud.

I cranked the T-wrench down to 60 ftlbs and used that instead. It felt right.

Anyone know what the torque spec for a stud like this is? Southwest Trailer's website is cryptic as far as specs are concerned, just says it's a 1/2" bolt

The one thing that may remain a concern is that I think the 80's wheels are hub-centered? The trailer is bolt-centered? And there's something you can put in between the wheel and the hub to fix this, but ain't cheap?

Better yet would be a hub assembly that is hub-centered, as cheap as new hubs are.

Or am I already good and don't know it?

 

[Koffer]

Mike, your good

As for how tight I did the star wrench tight till it felt good , then checked it again later just to make sure
has for the hub centric thing dont worry , like I said they are just idler axle and you'll never see or feel if the're off a hair

now its time to look and

 

[greentruck]

Todd,
Great, that's a relief!

Now to start planning some adventures. I'm trying to squeeze in finishing my dissertation this summer, so nothing much before Sept, unfortunately and that seems like it's just around the corner.

BTW, I did break out my e-copy of the M101 manual. They say to use 125 ftlbs. That makes sense with a steel wheel, but is still more than Toyota recommends for steel rims on an 80 (109 ftlbs). I'm going to stick with 60 ftlbs with the alloy rims and keep checking how things work as I break this baby in.

 

[greentruck]

Uh-oh, one final twist. When I got the rest of the lug nuts and went to do both wheels, found a problem that explained why the torque I did yesterday didn't feel right.

Turns out that your standard 1/2-20 shank nut bottoms out against the drum before it draws the washer tight onto the outer bearing surface of wheel. This left the washers jangling when the nut were tightened. Went and bought extra washers -- be sure to get the ones designed to use with lugnuts, as they are narrower than a standard washer and spec-ed to fit the lug nut properly. Depending on your studs, wheels and lugnuts, YMMV, but something to be careful about.

Now the torque felt right, so went ahead and torqued to the same value as used when mounting these on the 80 (76 ftlbs). Ready to roll!

 

[Ebag333]

Turns out that your standard 1/2-20 shank nut bottoms out against the drum before it draws the washer tight onto the outer bearing surface of wheel. This left the washers jangling when the nut were tightened.

This exact scenario happened on someone's 80 series. They were using the wrong lug nuts. There's two versions of the lug nuts, and you need to use the right ones with the right rims.

I don't recall the thread off hand, but I recall Cruiserdan being involved....

/me edits

Found the thread. I misremembered and it didn't actually happen, but it is what would happen.... Page 2 has the comment about the washers being loose, but the whole thread is an interesting read.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/26086-wheel-lug-nuts-ok-use-flats-conical-2.html

 

[greentruck]

CDan briefed me on the need to switch lugnuts on the 80 when I bought new steel wheels (42601-60361), which went on the truck.

I anticipated the need to use the proper lugnuts when mounting the 80's alloys on the trailer. My mistake was thinking that since the trailer's converto-hubs were set-up to take LandCruiser bolt pattern that the lugs would be metric like on the 80.

So when mounting the wheels with new tires on the trailer, the tech discovered that my best-laid plans were going awry when the 80's alloy lugnuts didn't fit the trailer's lugs. Yes, we did go ahead and use the steel wheel lugnuts to get the new tires on the trailer, but solely as a temporary fix to get the trailer out of the shop and safely home to my garage until I got this fixed.

As for the long discussion cited, I could see using alloy lugs temporarily to hold on a steel wheel, but would be very cautious doing so to get things fixed ASAP. On the alloys that came off the 80, I would not do anything other than get it parked for repair if using the steel lugnuts (which is what I did.) There is really no taper on the alloys, so trying to torque steel lugnuts on them is a hopeless task, likely to damage the wheel, and would be unsafe.

Needless to say, I carry enough extra alloy lugs so that I can use an alloy on the ground on the 80, since I still have the best 80 alloy rim as a spare on it, which could also be used for the trailer. You can't be too careful about getting this right, even on a trailer.

 

[Bossman]

Koffer,
Yeah, that may be it. At Southwest, they only list this hub (which I believe is the one on our M101) by drum size and bolt pattern.
https://www.southwestwheel.com/store/p-247-l0655lb3e.aspx

It says nothing at all about stud sizes/thread pitch for any of their adapter hubs. So I'm going to grab one of the lugnuts and see what that matches up to.

I don't care if it's metric or English, I just don't want the wheels flying off

And it's not like the first time someone stuck 80 alloy rims on a M101, so I'm sure I'll come up with some sort of solution.

I did some checking on the hub your link references. Could that be the elusive drum I've heard about to convert later model M416 axles to 6 lug drums? The bearing numbers all match my M416 surge brake axle.....I may just have to order a set and see if they will work but if anybody has real world experience please chime in!

 

[greentruck]

I can't be much help on the hub other than to say it might be. I'm not absolutely sure that they came from Southwest, but AFAIK they're the only ones with these.

The drums fit an 84 series axle (3500 lbs in this case) spindle. That's what is under the M101. I'm not sure what the time period is when 84 series axles became a standard. Since the M416 is 60s vintage, it may have been after that.

One way that may help determine this is to match the bearing part #s on your present axle against those spec-ed on the conversion hub. Since they match you're good, most likely. The hubs are cheap enough that ordering up a pair to check the fit if things seem to be matching up won't break the bank.

As for brakes, just a parking brake on the M101, but the parts all match Dexter 10" brakes. You may also be able to match up brake part #s in trying to determine if it'll work. I'm considering electric brakes for possible application in the future. If it's straightforward, I may take that route.

How do your surge brakes work? I'm particularly interested in how that helps on mountain roads.

 

[Bossman]

My M416 is one of the last few made from what I understand. It's a 70's vintage but I can't remember the year offhand (76 I think but could well be wrong). The surge brakes work well on paved roads but I could see where you would not want them operating in some off-road situations. There is a provision to "pin them off" (not allow the mechanism to actuate) for backing up purposes. I should think it would work just as well in any situation where you don't want them actuating.

The bearing and race numbers all match my current and I printed a picture of the 84 spindle to compare. I tried to find a scale drawing of the 84 spindle so that I could do a more complete check but I suppose a visual will have to do. If all looks good I'll be ordering a set to see if they will work for me.

Again, for any future reference, this might work on the later model M416 trailers with surge brakes that have a large back bearing and small outer bearing. My understanding of earlier m416 axles with hand brake only have the same size bearing inner and outer so this drum would not work.