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Check your dipstick.
Builds Marion Rising: 1974 FJ40 FST (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter MadMace
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- Thread starter
- #262
I just went and took a look at it--I did not notice anything out of the ordinary. Anything in particular I should be looking for?
I think Mark’s dipstick check was to look for coolant mixed with oil. That would indicate a breech between the oil and cooling system which can occur a few different ways. Head gasket failure is most common but worse, a cracked head or block.
I’m thinking maybe, during your flushing number 3 that you did with the head off, it pushed some of the crud you were flushing out, through the water pump and down through the bottom hose and into the radiator bottom tank. After sitting 7 months the thickest of it settled near the petcock. I doubt any of it got up to the radiator tubes. I think I’d just consider a basic off the shelf flush soon after start-up.
To not waste antifreeze maybe just fill the system for start-up with distilled water and something like “THIS” until you do the flush. (mix before filling)
A while ago another member pointed “THIS” product out which looks promising. I got a few bottles but haven’t yet tried any yet.
I just went back and had a look at your three flushes. I think you've discovered and pointed out something I’ve often tried to point out. And that is, it’s not that easy to flush these older cooling systems and get it thoroughly cleaned out. Especially if it’s had some neglect by PO’s
I’m thinking maybe, during your flushing number 3 that you did with the head off, it pushed some of the crud you were flushing out, through the water pump and down through the bottom hose and into the radiator bottom tank. After sitting 7 months the thickest of it settled near the petcock. I doubt any of it got up to the radiator tubes. I think I’d just consider a basic off the shelf flush soon after start-up.
To not waste antifreeze maybe just fill the system for start-up with distilled water and something like “THIS” until you do the flush. (mix before filling)
A while ago another member pointed “THIS” product out which looks promising. I got a few bottles but haven’t yet tried any yet.
I just went back and had a look at your three flushes. I think you've discovered and pointed out something I’ve often tried to point out. And that is, it’s not that easy to flush these older cooling systems and get it thoroughly cleaned out. Especially if it’s had some neglect by PO’s
- Thread starter
- #264
Thank you 65swb45 and Steamer. I will definitely research and get one of those flushes. I had come across that Evaporust product in the past and found it interesting. I had read that you could check the oil to see if it would fluoresce under black light. Mine did but then I checked fresh oil out of the bottle and it fluoresced also--so that didn't help.
I think that it was the head gasket. Fortunately it is not a cracked head as I just had that rebuilt by FJ40JIM.
I know that a cracked block is the least likely of the possibilities but is there anything that I would have seen in the cylinders or on the top of the block when the head was off that would have indicated a crack in the block?
I guess that I should also keep flushing the radiator from the fill through the petcock until it is running clear before I do any start-up.
Again, I am very appreciative of all the shared knowledge from all of you--I'd be lost otherwise.
I think that it was the head gasket. Fortunately it is not a cracked head as I just had that rebuilt by FJ40JIM.
I know that a cracked block is the least likely of the possibilities but is there anything that I would have seen in the cylinders or on the top of the block when the head was off that would have indicated a crack in the block?
I guess that I should also keep flushing the radiator from the fill through the petcock until it is running clear before I do any start-up.
Again, I am very appreciative of all the shared knowledge from all of you--I'd be lost otherwise.
Just wondering if it would be a good idea to check inside the bottom hose. I know. Easy for me to say eh?
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- #266
Yes, it would--I was planning on doing that tonight. Like you so appropriately said in one of your earlier posts--I have waited this long so might as well do things the right way. I am going to pull the bottom hose and give it a good cleaning. I am prepared to pull the radiator to have it cleaned out if needed.
middlecalf
SILVER Star
And open the block drain when doing that flush after pulling the bottom hose. Is the thermostat housing still off? That makes it easy to fill the block with evaporust (the normal rust remover) and let sit for several days and then drain through block drain. I have a gano filter inline in the top hose so when I eventually fire mine up that’ll keep any remnant big stuff out of the radiator. And even then after that I’ll run some thermocure through the system just cuz. At each flush check the dipstick to see if there’s been any incursion into oil.
- Thread starter
- #268
So I've been thinking about the gunk that was obstructing my radiator's petcock and went back through my flushing/cleaning techniques. I think I have figured out what was (were) the culprit(s). Hopefully documenting this will help others to know what to not do, or at least be aware of.
I followed his sage advice and this is what I saw:
This is the oil that has been running since we changed it out when we first got Marion so I was happy to see how clean it was--no sign of coolant mixed in. Granted, we haven't had a bunch of run time but enough to where there would be coolant if there was some breach between the cooling and oiling systems.
I also still have the coolant that we drained out before pulling the head and there was no sign of oil in it (not planning on reusing it, just have not a chance to dispose of it at the hazardous waste drop off). Interestingly, the rust had all settled out to the bottom--I was surprised at how thick the layer was on the bottom of the bottles. Main realization for me with this is that rust particles settle out to the lowest place (this would be the petcock in the radiator in my case).
So what I forgot to mention in my previous postings is that when the head was pulled, it was drained through the block drain. This left coolant in the water pump, lower radiator hose and bottom of the radiator. After the extensive flushing of the block I filled the water jackets of the block with Evapo-Rust and let it sit for 2 days. In order to be able to fill the water jackets fully I had to leave the lower radiator hose attached. The Evapo-Rust is a chelating agent that removes the iron from iron oxide and then a sulfur bearing compound binds to the iron forming ferrous sulfate--this stays in solution--unless it mixes with coolant, which has a more alkaline pH, then precipitate forms.
So, following the the advice of @Steamer and @middlecalf I pulled the lower radiator hose and saw this--a nice thick layer of what I would guess is ferrous sulfate:
Of course, if it is this thick in the lower radiator hose it would be very thick at the lowest point in the system, which is the petcock. This would be in addition to whatever heavier sludge was being flushed from the block (despite my best efforts to get it to drain through the block drain). I guess it's no wonder the petcock was plugged.
Okay, so what I've learned. If you flush the block like I did (which I am not saying is best practice, just what I did), I would make sure that the petcock on the radiator is left open or at least opened as often as the block drain is opened to keep it cleaned out. Also, if you use Evaporators-Rust, make sure ALL the coolant is out. It is not harmful to the system, it just changes the pH of the solution which yields suboptimal performance and results. Of course, you could always disconnect the radiator--you just have to find a way to block the inlet on the front of the block so that the jackets can be completely filled.
My brain hurts..I'm going to bed.
I followed his sage advice and this is what I saw:
This is the oil that has been running since we changed it out when we first got Marion so I was happy to see how clean it was--no sign of coolant mixed in. Granted, we haven't had a bunch of run time but enough to where there would be coolant if there was some breach between the cooling and oiling systems.
I also still have the coolant that we drained out before pulling the head and there was no sign of oil in it (not planning on reusing it, just have not a chance to dispose of it at the hazardous waste drop off). Interestingly, the rust had all settled out to the bottom--I was surprised at how thick the layer was on the bottom of the bottles. Main realization for me with this is that rust particles settle out to the lowest place (this would be the petcock in the radiator in my case).
So what I forgot to mention in my previous postings is that when the head was pulled, it was drained through the block drain. This left coolant in the water pump, lower radiator hose and bottom of the radiator. After the extensive flushing of the block I filled the water jackets of the block with Evapo-Rust and let it sit for 2 days. In order to be able to fill the water jackets fully I had to leave the lower radiator hose attached. The Evapo-Rust is a chelating agent that removes the iron from iron oxide and then a sulfur bearing compound binds to the iron forming ferrous sulfate--this stays in solution--unless it mixes with coolant, which has a more alkaline pH, then precipitate forms.
So, following the the advice of @Steamer and @middlecalf I pulled the lower radiator hose and saw this--a nice thick layer of what I would guess is ferrous sulfate:
Of course, if it is this thick in the lower radiator hose it would be very thick at the lowest point in the system, which is the petcock. This would be in addition to whatever heavier sludge was being flushed from the block (despite my best efforts to get it to drain through the block drain). I guess it's no wonder the petcock was plugged.
Okay, so what I've learned. If you flush the block like I did (which I am not saying is best practice, just what I did), I would make sure that the petcock on the radiator is left open or at least opened as often as the block drain is opened to keep it cleaned out. Also, if you use Evaporators-Rust, make sure ALL the coolant is out. It is not harmful to the system, it just changes the pH of the solution which yields suboptimal performance and results. Of course, you could always disconnect the radiator--you just have to find a way to block the inlet on the front of the block so that the jackets can be completely filled.
My brain hurts..I'm going to bed.
I think brain hurting just comes along with improved understanding of the difficulties of getting a cooling system thoroughly cleaned. You’re understanding improved significantly after you did some serious flushing and then pulled your head only find crud still lingering around in there. I share your pain. 
- Thread starter
- #270
2 steps forward and 1 step back...or maybe 2.
Startup went off without a hitch. Much, much smoother than I could have hoped for. To my utter surprise, she started up with the first turn of the key and turning over 2 or 3 times. That had never happened before...not even close. Usually took multiple turns of the key and multiple turn overs each time to get her started. We immediately saw the oil pressure gauge respond after she started--thank goodness!
The days leading up to start-up I used a remote starter to turn the engine over several times (with the plugs out and the coil disconnected) and closely watched the rocker arms and push rods to make sure there was no binding. I also wanted to see if I could get some oil flowing up to the valve train. No oil made it up during the turn overs with the remote starter. I was surprised how much air was pushed out of the cylinders through the spark plug holes as it was turning over...caught me off guard the first time and actually startled me.
We had several other obligations last weekend so after firing her back up we pulled her back into the garage and didn't have time to do much else.
My wife took this picture as soon as she fired up. You can see the astonishment on my face...and the pleasant surprise on my son's.
It was nice to get her out into the sun again...
Hard to see in this picture but with the engine running we could see oil coming through all the rocker arms.
Okay, so that is the "2 steps forward"...next post is the one step back.
Startup went off without a hitch. Much, much smoother than I could have hoped for. To my utter surprise, she started up with the first turn of the key and turning over 2 or 3 times. That had never happened before...not even close. Usually took multiple turns of the key and multiple turn overs each time to get her started. We immediately saw the oil pressure gauge respond after she started--thank goodness!
The days leading up to start-up I used a remote starter to turn the engine over several times (with the plugs out and the coil disconnected) and closely watched the rocker arms and push rods to make sure there was no binding. I also wanted to see if I could get some oil flowing up to the valve train. No oil made it up during the turn overs with the remote starter. I was surprised how much air was pushed out of the cylinders through the spark plug holes as it was turning over...caught me off guard the first time and actually startled me.
We had several other obligations last weekend so after firing her back up we pulled her back into the garage and didn't have time to do much else.
My wife took this picture as soon as she fired up. You can see the astonishment on my face...and the pleasant surprise on my son's.
It was nice to get her out into the sun again...
Hard to see in this picture but with the engine running we could see oil coming through all the rocker arms.
Okay, so that is the "2 steps forward"...next post is the one step back.
- Thread starter
- #271
Okay, now the steps back...and where I am now.
It was time to start dialing her in. The plan was to get her up to operating temp and adjust the valves (started off with them set to spec as per the FSM but they were set with the engine cold). All started well. As she did last weekend, she started on the first turn of the key. We pulled her out of garage and let her idle. Idle was the smoothest she has had since I've had her. I decided to let her idle vs driving her around because I have not yet fully tested the brakes I redid, the emergency brake is not 100% (about to completely rebuild), and I had yet to set the timing and re-adjust the valves.
I get the timing set to 7 degrees BTDC, do a couple of walk arounds and look-unders to make sure there are no leaks. All looks great. I check the temp gauge--perfect. I go to grab my feeler gauges to set the valves and she sputters out and dies. I remember that I had only put in a small amount of gas several months ago--mainly enough to get her on and off the trailer to the mechanic and on and off the trailer when I brought her back home. I figured she had run out of gas. Ran up to the gas station, got some fresh gas, added some Seafoam and put the 2 gallon mixture into the tank.
I figured she'd start right back up...wrong. Okay, must just need some cranks to get gas to the carb...nope. I could not get her to start back up. I checked all that I knew to check...
Gas 1/2 way up in the sight-glass (did fill up completely after cranking the engine several times but would go back down to 1/2)
Dizzy Cap, rotor, and wires all in place and hooked up correctly
I am running a Pertronix electronic ignition--took a quick look at that and it seemed to be all in order.
Took out the spark plug from cylinder #1. It was wet with gas..so I though maybe no spark.
I have never checked for spark before so I did a lot or reading, watching videos and did my best to learn. Problem for me was I've never done it before so I didn't know if I was doing it wrong or there was weak spark. I disconnected the wires to all the plugs. Removed the plug from cylinder #1 and connected it to its boot. I got a jumper cable and connected one end to the threaded portion of the spark plug then connected the other end to the negative post on the battery. I had my wife crank the engine and I saw what looked like a very weak, intermittent spark. It did not seem to fire each time the rotor came around to #1 on the dizzy cap. I say weak spark because I could barely see it---I was expecting more of a blue bright spark than I saw. I am running hotter plugs...they are Denso W14EXR-U.
The battery grew weak from all the cranking so I had to get my trusty Kubota tractor and push her back into the garage. It really sucked to have her go out under her own power then have to be pushed back in.
Soooooo, here's what I've done with the remainder of my time this weekend with Marion:
I have read that the Pertronix EI can suddenly fail and many Cruiserheads keep a set of points with them so they are not stranded in the event of failure. So I put the points that came with the dizzy back in (this is a pretty new dizzy that I got from City Racer).
I have cleaned off all the grounds associated with the ignition system/starter. The ground from the starter to the frame was pretty nasty.
I put a cheap in-line clear Wix fuel filter.
Recharged the battery.
That's where I am now. Before I start cranking her again, I want to read some more and hopefully get some input from ya'll. I don't want to change too many things at once.
It was time to start dialing her in. The plan was to get her up to operating temp and adjust the valves (started off with them set to spec as per the FSM but they were set with the engine cold). All started well. As she did last weekend, she started on the first turn of the key. We pulled her out of garage and let her idle. Idle was the smoothest she has had since I've had her. I decided to let her idle vs driving her around because I have not yet fully tested the brakes I redid, the emergency brake is not 100% (about to completely rebuild), and I had yet to set the timing and re-adjust the valves.
I get the timing set to 7 degrees BTDC, do a couple of walk arounds and look-unders to make sure there are no leaks. All looks great. I check the temp gauge--perfect. I go to grab my feeler gauges to set the valves and she sputters out and dies. I remember that I had only put in a small amount of gas several months ago--mainly enough to get her on and off the trailer to the mechanic and on and off the trailer when I brought her back home. I figured she had run out of gas. Ran up to the gas station, got some fresh gas, added some Seafoam and put the 2 gallon mixture into the tank.
I figured she'd start right back up...wrong. Okay, must just need some cranks to get gas to the carb...nope. I could not get her to start back up. I checked all that I knew to check...
Gas 1/2 way up in the sight-glass (did fill up completely after cranking the engine several times but would go back down to 1/2)
Dizzy Cap, rotor, and wires all in place and hooked up correctly
I am running a Pertronix electronic ignition--took a quick look at that and it seemed to be all in order.
Took out the spark plug from cylinder #1. It was wet with gas..so I though maybe no spark.
I have never checked for spark before so I did a lot or reading, watching videos and did my best to learn. Problem for me was I've never done it before so I didn't know if I was doing it wrong or there was weak spark. I disconnected the wires to all the plugs. Removed the plug from cylinder #1 and connected it to its boot. I got a jumper cable and connected one end to the threaded portion of the spark plug then connected the other end to the negative post on the battery. I had my wife crank the engine and I saw what looked like a very weak, intermittent spark. It did not seem to fire each time the rotor came around to #1 on the dizzy cap. I say weak spark because I could barely see it---I was expecting more of a blue bright spark than I saw. I am running hotter plugs...they are Denso W14EXR-U.
The battery grew weak from all the cranking so I had to get my trusty Kubota tractor and push her back into the garage. It really sucked to have her go out under her own power then have to be pushed back in.
Soooooo, here's what I've done with the remainder of my time this weekend with Marion:
I have read that the Pertronix EI can suddenly fail and many Cruiserheads keep a set of points with them so they are not stranded in the event of failure. So I put the points that came with the dizzy back in (this is a pretty new dizzy that I got from City Racer).
I have cleaned off all the grounds associated with the ignition system/starter. The ground from the starter to the frame was pretty nasty.
I put a cheap in-line clear Wix fuel filter.
Recharged the battery.
That's where I am now. Before I start cranking her again, I want to read some more and hopefully get some input from ya'll. I don't want to change too many things at once.
Last edited:
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Dean
When you get the truck running again, have a vacuum guage hooked up and take some readings.
When you get the truck running again, have a vacuum guage hooked up and take some readings.
- Thread starter
- #273
Hi Mark. Thank you, I certainly will.
BTW, it is from reading your posts that I learned to keep my points handy. Otherwise, they likely would have ended up in a bin somewhere in my garage, never to be seen again (or at least not until I didn’t need them anymore or had bought another set). I always learn a lot from all your posts, I appreciate them and all the knowledge you share greatly.
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Reading your post again, I’m wondering about your description of the fuel level. If you see the level rising while your cranking, watch the two brass nozzles in the air horn above the fuel bowl. If you see gas in the vent nozzles, you’ve got dirt in the seat above the float and the needle is not closing properly (IOW it’s flooding)
- Thread starter
- #276
Will do. I am fairly certain I know where on the carb you are referring to, but just to make sure, I should watch for any gas coming through the nozzles indicated by the arrows?
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- #278
Hi John. It is the Ignitor II (red one).
I took a picture of it before I took it out in case I want to put it back in. Of course, I am assuming I put installed it correctly. The picture might show differently.
Here's the after, as it sits now. Adjusted the point gap to 0.018.
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Before changing anything else out, I’d try with a fully charged battery.
Hi Dean. I had my share of problems with the red, Pertronix “Ignitor II”. “Giving Up On Pertronix”. It was only after I went to a DUI setup that I got thinking back on my red “Ignitor II” failures. I recalled that on at least two of the failures that occurred, I had tried starting the rig with a low battery. The Optima red was in good shape but was low due me leaving some lights or other devises switched on. Jumping or recharging the battery didn’t make the “Ignotor II” fire, but it was after an hour or more had passed, that it suddenly worked again.
It got me thinking about the “Overload” protection of the red “Ignitor II” I don’t know how it works inside there but thought maybe it’s like a thermal overload that was triggered by the low battery and then reset itself after a cooling down period.
It’s just a theory and thought it might be something to think about if you should try out the red module again.
It got me thinking about the “Overload” protection of the red “Ignitor II” I don’t know how it works inside there but thought maybe it’s like a thermal overload that was triggered by the low battery and then reset itself after a cooling down period.
It’s just a theory and thought it might be something to think about if you should try out the red module again.
