MAF turbo

Discussion in '80-Series Tech' started by apcoleman, Jul 19, 2005.

when will you see the turbo?

Poll closed Sep 7, 2005.
  1. Within 6 months

    9 vote(s)
    22.0%
  2. Within the year

    4 vote(s)
    9.8%
  3. Within 2 years

    5 vote(s)
    12.2%
  4. Its another unicorn

    23 vote(s)
    56.1%
  1. apcoleman

    apcoleman

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    Just curious to see when everyone else thinks we will see the illusive turbo from MAF. I really hope they do produce it, but when is the big question. What do you think?
     
  2. Cruiserhead05

    Cruiserhead05

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    tony, if it becomes available sooon are you planning on getting one?
     
  3. clownmidget

    clownmidget

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    I really don't want to stir the pot, but can't help myself!

    The Safari Turbo was available from MAF and a couple of others for $5500 (or round about there) and just about no one actually stepped up and bought one. Some say that it was because MAF insisted that they install it, etc. But it really comes down to plunking down that much cash all at once for a single mod that has questionable benefits off-road, increases the technical complexity of the engine and demands that you be meticulous with maintenance, fluids, etc.

    Given the current costs of things, it will be pretty likely that anything MAF puts together as a "complete" kit is going to be north of $6K. Who here really is going to step up to that kind of modification? Especially now when even the 1997 model years are barely going for twice that?

    If you really want one, then get a turbo manifold (they are available as "custom" from a couple of sources), bolt on whatever turbo you think will work (these are all over eBay - Garrett T4?), source an intercooler and tranny oil cooler (again, all over eBay), get the duct work for the intercooler done locally, order up a UniChip from APS or do the FMU stuff like Gadget (www.gadgetonline.com). Then maybe you'll get around to doing a fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, high flow exhaust, and maybe even getting it on a 4 wheel dyno. You'd be surprised how quickly you get have your truck turbo'd if you really wanted it. Bottom line is you don't have to wait for MAF if you don't want to. But they've got to go through a hell of a lot of testing before they're going to sell this to anyone - it's a huge liability. Plus since they know a lot of their potential sales are in CA they need to get it CARB certified which can take many, many months.

    Ok, rant off.
     
  4. apcoleman

    apcoleman

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    If I ever see one I will most likely get one if it is a nice kit like the safari. Personally, I feel it is very far away.
     
  5. clownmidget

    clownmidget

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  6. acolella

    acolella

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    Asking for trouble......

    Turbo charging the 1FZ I think is a bad idea unless you lower the compression by providing the right pistons (ie. low compression forged pistons). If MAF says you dont have to, its BS!!! Dont get me wrong you can turbo charge any motor but you would be dramitically shortening its life span if its not designed for boost (ie pistons)

    The lesser of the two evils would be to supercharge. Toyota doesnt require low compression pistons and much more economical.

    Again, if you turbo charge, do it right with the correct internals.

    I want CDANS opinion on this one....

    AC
     
  7. e9999

    e9999 You want to do what...? Moderator

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    as much as I love polls, I'm not sure what the purpose of this one would be. I would surmise that nobody here has any idea based on facts. Some may say that perhaps Steve was a bit hasty or vague when he announced it, but I'm sure he was just trying to be helpful. So if he does not know for sure or does not care to tell, what's the point of guessing? If one wants to know, the best thing to do is to call him and ask. Let's give the good folks out there who work to give us goodies some break... It's much easier to complain about late delivery than to actually do the work it takes to get the stuff out, I'm sure...
     
  8. tiorio

    tiorio

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    How is higher compression resulting from turbocharging different than higher compression resulting from supercharging? Higher manifold pressure, regardless of the way it was produced, will produce a higher effective compression ratio.

    Any boost is added stress on the internals of any motor, whether it was designed for it or not.
     
  9. tiorio

    tiorio

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    Oh, and I was over at MAF last week and saw the kit, and my 5 minute inspection yielded the impression that it's going to be a pretty nice kit. I'm waiting to see some BEFORE AND AFTER DYNO RUNS before I pass final judgement however, the torque and hp curves don't lie!
     
  10. clownmidget

    clownmidget

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    Yes, the TRD/Kazuma s/c produces about 6-7 lbs of boost with the pulley they provide and some folks use smaller pulleys to push that up near 10 lbs. The Safari turbo usually comes set at about 6-8 lbs of boost and can be pushed to near 12 lbs but according to the two people that I have heard putting it that high and higher it can greatly reduce the life span of you motor ;) !
     
  11. acolella

    acolella

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    Also to clairify, I have a lot of experience with aftermarket turbo kits for engines not orginanally designed for boost.
     
  12. Cattledog

    Cattledog

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    I agree with clownmiget. If people really wanted a turbocharged 1fz, we would see more custom one off setups. Turbocharging FI motors is not rocket science. Turbocharging a non-forced induction motor and making it reliable IS difficult. Tuning under many different conditions is the key to reliability; a rising rate fuel pressure regulator is not the answer to reliability. A separate or independent engine management is the only way. Running the engine rich may keep you from toasting a piston but will screw up the emissions sensors quickly. Is MAF using a 4 wheel hydraulic dyno for the tuning and including a separate engine management? Steve-O?

    Another question, who would or could spend $7k to $9K on mild rebuild when (not if) you over rev your motor with a turbocharger? Sorry to highjack the thread. Everyone will want more boost... BTW I think the 1FZ is a magnificent engine, even a great choice for a turbocharger. Not many engines have 7 main bearings, oil squirters under the pistons and a relatively low stock compression. There are reasons that make this an expensive engine.

    If people turbocharge these older 80's, we will see holes in blocks, cracked pistons and toasted transmissions. IMHO
     
  13. IBCRUSN

    IBCRUSN

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    I'll play devil's advocate. If anyone comes out with a kit that is north of even $5k, save some $$ and put a V8 in it. I'm all for Toyota engineering and quality but if you are dead set on more HP putting a high dollar turbo on it sure seems like a waste. This is one instance that American HP is the way to go. Hell, if Mark's has kits for Chevy/Holden in Oz doesn't that kind of spell it out?

    Enough ranting.
     
  14. tiorio

    tiorio

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    Aren't there quite a few cruisers running around with Safari units still?

    Forced induction is a very good way to gain horsepower, without major modifications to a motor. MODERATION IS THE KEY!

    My 930 is turbocharged from the factory. If I crank up the boost to 1.2 bar and start running around I can easily grenade that motor too. The 80's motor can handle some extra boost, even Toyota agrees and sell a supercharger to do just that. What are you guys seeing about a turbo kit that's so different here?

    No offense to anyone but a mild turbo or supercharger isn't rocket science...
     
  15. Steve-O

    Steve-O

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    We do and will be using a 4 wheel dyno for all dyno charts with the 80's yes. With our turbo there will be a unichip for it, if thats what you meant by engine managment. I'm not sure where you got the 7-9K for an engine rebuild, we rebuild long block 1fz's for $4,000, or $4,500 for a long block with higher or lower compression pistons. When we did the lower compression with a turbo, it ran awsome, just a bit warmer than we would have liked......So far we have not come across any serious damage to a 1fz engine from a turbo. I dont recommend doing a turbo on a 3fe or older because of the crankshaft, but we have been running the Safari turbos for years on the 95-97 with no ill effects. I think a lot of your post was related to the 93-94? We will be working on that next. :cheers:

    acolella, by no means do I want to pick a fight, but I do dissagree with some of what you have stated. Because turbos are exhaust driven, and superchargers are belt driven, there is less work the engine has to do to run a turbo. Adding another pulley to the crank causes more energy to be wasted. Again, I am in no way picking a fight, just stating my opinion. I to would like Dan's opinion on this. We have spoke on the phone about it before, but I would love for him to chime in.

    Steve.
     
  16. Steve-O

    Steve-O

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    Good post, and I agree with everything. We will see about the cost. Just so you know, the kit will be CARB certified. The time to get it approved wont be too difficult because the safari kit was approved, and we are following those guidlines. What we are doing right now is testing, a lot of testing. We did want to put the turbo on a re-built engine, the engine should be back next week, hopfully dyno sheets following right after. Doing a 2-wheel dyno isnt fair, and we wont be using 27" tires either, 4 wheel dyno, 33" tires most likely.

    The reason we feel it will do better than the safari kit is mainly because the 80 series are more popular right now. We are at a time where a lot of 80 series owners are wanting to take the grocery mobile and step it up a bit. We have noticed a dramatic increase in 80 series product sales in the last few years.

    We also know that our kit will be better than Safari, we took a great design, and improved on it. Ball bearing turbine, seperate wastegate, 1-piece cast manifold, all ceramic coated pipes, custom heat molded hoses, and a larger intercooler sound pretty sweet to me. :cheers:
     
  17. Cattledog

    Cattledog

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    Great to hear Steve-O. The kit sounds interesting, please share the dyno sheets during tuning if possible. The numbers of 7 to 9K for a mild rebuild was my impression for OEM parts on a blow motor, with a need for a short block with or without a cylinder head. Cuiserdan am I in the right price range? Mild rebuild meaning stock connectiong rods and pistons. How has the durablity of your Safari customer's engines been? Can you share? How many were installed?

    tiorio, how many people on this board are running safari's? I thought at most 3 or 4? Any show of hands? :)

    Positive displacement supercharging and turbocharging are different methods of compressing air. A good turbocharge kit will have some type of seperate high quality wastegate on the turbo and manifold. If the wastegate on a turbocharger fails to open at the right intake pressure you get a boost spike. Boost spikes will lean the AF mixture and crack pistons and bend connecting rods pretty quick. Faster than you can get off the gas. On the other hand Wastegates are very easy to adjust and up the boost. More boost is addictive...

    Positive displacement supercharger's ablity to compress air is limited to the rpm of the motor, belt tension and physical size of the pully. Boost spikes are difficult generate under these conditions. Engine load has little effect on a supercharger's ablity to compress air. A turbocharger's ablity to compress air is greatly effected by exhaust gas temperature. The heat of the exhaust gas does the work. The energy of the exhaust gas varied with engine load, fuel ratio, and timming advance among other variables. That is why proper tuning is critical.

    Toyota's choice in aftermarket forced induction is a reflection of these facts IMHO.

    IBCRUISN, I am with you. Let's drop a blown 454 into an 80 with a Mark's adapter bellhousing. That would be HP and torque! :beer:
     
  18. mot

    mot

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    Does that mean that I'm screwed, Steve? :frown:

    Mot :crybaby: ;)
     
  19. tiorio

    tiorio

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    Fair point, that. I dunno...

    Ok, so you're saying if there is a malfunction in the system everything goes pear-shaped. I'm with you on that, and that adding complexity adds to the chances something will fail. But I don't agree with what seems to be the consensus here that turbocharging an 80 will blow the motor up. As for turning up the boost because it's addictive, well that's just stupidity and there's no accounting for stupidity.

    Right, but either way you're using energy from the combustion process to compress the intake charge. A turbocharger has less parasitic drag than the roots-type supercharger that Toyota uses so you will probably get better net performance. Fine. And exhaust drives the turbocharger so yes, exhaust pressure is paramount. Great. So what I think you're saying is that you have to use the right turbocharger for the conditions. Which is just like saying you have to use the correct blower and pulleys etc. for a supercharger installation.

    I agree with this if you're saying that Toyota used a roots-type blower and mild boost levels to provide a reliable, bolt-on, affordable HP upgrade, then I'm with you. What I'm totally not buying in this thread is the general idea that people are going to grenade their engines if they install one of the MAF kits, or that such a kit is a waste of money. Wasn't there a whole thread on getting a group-buy on Safari turbo kits a few months ago?

    I'm waiting to see the dyno sheets and A/F ratios (same vehicle stock and with turbo) before plunking any money down, don't get me wrong. But I think it's well within reason that MAF could have this kit for sale in 6 months and that it would be an improvement over the supercharger solution.

    Besides, if I don't like the turbo they supply I can start experimenting with my own little combos :)
     
  20. Junk

    Junk

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    You forgot the option of who gives a frickin hoot. No thanks to both portions of the question :flipoff2:
     
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