M101 v. M 416: what are the differences as I´m slightly confused

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I know that this topic has been beat to death over the last couple of years in one way or another but I truly remain confused, I think. Also, I´ll admit up front two things: (1) I am a complete newby as to the 4x4 trailer scene and (2) Given some of the wheeling in this area I can´t see how towing a trailer , the weight, moving center of gravity, approach angles etc would ever work except in the mildest of situations. Those two things being said I definitely see the utility of having a trailer for weekend hauling duties and making a quick run up to my daughter´s college to help her move from place to place etc.

I have a friend at work with a very shiny new FJ Cruiser who is all obsessed with getting the latest AT or Sierra trailers. When he mentioned the cost I said I know where there is a crew of guys who build their own and come up with really nice builds and innovative ideas all based on surplus military trailers.

Ok so I´m here, after searching this sub forum and reading some of these threads it seems that two trailers seem to be the favorite platform, M 101 and the M 416. What is the difference between the two? First the nomenclature. When most folks here are talking about these two trailers they are talking about the Canadian versions, yes? There is a sometime confusing discussion of M 101 US which is a 3/4 ton trailer and the Canadian M 101 which is a 1/4 ton trailer, correct? Assuming that I got all of that right and we are talking about the Canadian stuff, what are the differences between the two? Is it just that the 101 is the successor to the 416 or do the differences run deeper, load capacity, wider or narrower wheel base, ease of modifications?

Last where are folks sourcing these? I´m from the US but I´m presently overseas. When I get back home I can see doing one of these. Sorry for all of the newby to the sub forum questions and thanks in advance for the info.
John
 
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John,
Since I contributed to your confusion by missing that the trailer being discussed in that thread wasn't a M101 CDN, but instead was a M101 A2 (or another A-suffix), let me try to square this for you.

US surplus M101 trailers are 3/4 ton. These typically have a sub-type suffix tagged onto the end, like -A2 or -A3. Sometimes that is dropped when people write about them, which can also contribute to confusion. These are typically used for heavy hauling, like fetching wood, etc as they're too big for most trail towing. You could bring half your house furnishings to camp with one, if you live in a small bungalow. Just too much trailer in most cases for an expo trailer.

Turning to 1/4 ton trailers...

The original US M100 1/4 ton was WWII-vintage. Due to the age, they're very collectible -- or just plain too far gone in many cases -- to consider, although you might get lucky and find one in reasonably good shape without being too $$ if you keep looking.

The US M416 is a Cold War/Vietnam War-era 1/4 ton trailer. The last US versions were produced in the 1970s. These can be found in all price ranges and a variety of difficulty of restoration or conversion.

The Canadian M101 1/4 ton trailer is best tagged as M101 CDN or CDN M101. If the CDN is left out, it can be confused -- as elsewhere -- with the US M101, which as noted above is a 3/4 ton trailer. The M101 CDN was produced in a small run of slightly less than 2,000 units in 1992 for the Canadian Forces. These were typically towed by the Iltis, a small 4x4 produced for the West German Army and Canadian Forces. These are usually found in pretty good condition, because they are so much newer than the alternatives and they incorporate a number of small modifications that results in an even better trailer than those 1/4 ton trailers that came before. Prices can vary, depending on what people have sunk into them since purchase. The range is generally between $700 and $1,500, although YMMV.

Essentially, the beds of the M100, M416, and the M101 CDN are very close in size and the load capacity is likewise similar. Parts may not be interchangeable in some cases, but any of the 1/4 ton trailers would be a good basis to start an expo trailer build.
 
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Brentbba

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Great comparison Mike. One other minor difference between the US 416 and CDN 101 is that the 416 but can be removed for a frame off restoration. The CDN bretheren is welded on.
 
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Great comparison Mike. One other minor difference between the US 416 and CDN 101 is that the 416 but can be removed for a frame off restoration. The CDN bretheren is welded on.

Brent,
Good point. In the long run, this will make keeping rust from being an issue on the M101 CDN rather more important.

The only significant rust on ours was some in the front part of the bed from sitting outside with moisture collected there from the slight nose-down position. After sandblasting, there were some pinholes there, so I paid special attention to rehabbing that and making sure I had the corrosion stopped.

With a M416, you can take things apart and get to the rust that often develops at the bed/frame interface more easily. That's going to be more difficult to address if rust gets good start in the same areas on a M101 CDN.

But don't let this scare you off from a M101 CDN. They are generally considered better built than earlier models. Lots of reinforcement in the bed, neat tie-downs built in, beefy spring hangers, and the same tarp hooks commonly found on a deuce-and-a-half. And any rust that is there is usually minor, in comparison to the basket cases I've seen folks start with in a build of one of the US 1/4 ton trailers.
 
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Guys this is really helpful, thanks. Thus far as I get it, the CDN M101 is more modern, has some nice additional features but is welded to its frame. As such if you find one, you should really start your rust inspection at those welds. If everything otherwise looks good then grab it if you can find one for a decent price.

The US M416, Vietnam era trailer has the advantage of being able to have the box pulled from the frame thus alowing for a complete frame off sand down and paint.

Ok now are any of the features that come standard on the Cdn M101 able to be replicated or installed on the nM416? For example, tarp tie downs, cargo hooks etc. Part of that question is also asking if these trailers are shaped the same, same dimensions, etc.

Last, and again, trailer noobness will show blatantly here, when you guys say 1/4 ton v. 3/4 ton I tak it that you ar referring to Max Load capacity and not trailer weight itself, right? I thought that I read somewhere that these trailers weighed in at 700lbs??? If I´m right then that means that the combined towing weight would be approx 700lbs + 500lbs (1/4 ton)= 1200lbs being towed behind my approx 4500lb 40 series. :eek: Good thing I swapped in the motor from the Coaster bus!:D
 
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VC,
I'm only intimately familiar with our M101 CDN. You may find relatively light rust underneath, but it's unlikely to be extensive. The rust I referred to on ours was almost entirely in the floor of the bed. Underneath where the welds were was in good shape. They have winter up north, but I suspect these trailers saw far more use on summer exercises than winter use. This, any rust should be minor. I just wanted to emphasize that an owner will want to keep up with paint, etc and not leave it sitting outside uncovered, given some of the horrors I've seen in pics of the earlier trailers.

Tarp tie downs like on the M101 CDN would be easy to install on an earlier trailer. They should bolt right on and are a standard mil-spec part. Finding them is the trick. The folding tie-down points in the bed walls could be installed by cutting holes and welding one of the various folding cargo tie-downs into the hols. These are welded into the M101 CDN, but similar designs could be adapted to another trailer if you have some basic metal fab skills. Note that the M416 generally has a few tiedowns, but these are not as robust or as well placed as with the Canadian trailer.

The shape of the bed and its measurements are pretty close between all 3, but there probably are minor differences. The M101 CDN measurements can be found in the manual in the files of the M101 Yahoo list.

The empty weight is listed as 775 lbs. The payload is listed as 500 lbs, either on the highway or "cross country" -- the military term for off-road. However, I think I remember where it was tested to carry at least twice that much on the highway and users regularly report loads exceeding that seem to be OK for short hops (usually when they tell the guy at the gravel pit to 'fill 'er up" and then find at the scale that they have 1200 lbs or more in the bed!)

I personally would feel comfortable towing it with several hundred pounds over the rated capacity. But that depends on the tow vehicle. Realistically, you're not going to find an expo style trailer that will hold up to the kind of abuse your 40 can drag it through that weighs much less.
 
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the cdn 1/4 ton also uses different axles. from what i remember, it uses a more standard 3500# bearings and races that are available from a trailer supply store. the 416's were a bit more of a bastard, and not 3500# iirc. many that rebuilt 416's have opted to swap out the complete axle to change their bolt pattern, while the cdn M101s just required different drums. i could be wrong, but thats what i found in my research.

as mentioned, the cdn has grab handles, exterior tarp tie downs and interior cargo tie downs, neither of which the 415 had. with regard to the payload cap @ 500#, thats in order to maintain the trailers capability to float. yes, with 500 or less lbs, these trailers could actually float across a river crossing. of course if you start cutting it etc...then it wont. but i doubt youll want the floating ability anyway. you could easily load it up waay past max payload cap easily.

another minor difference is that the perimeter bead of the cargo bed on the 416 is tubular, where the cdn 101 is square.

overall, the cdn 101 is regarded as the better of the two...
 
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Wow they float!!!:bounce2::bounce::bounce2::hmm: That actually would be a big deal down here as there are river crossings all the time. Obviously, as you say if you cut into it then "sink, no float". The backpacker in me can not imagine carrying 500 more lbs of c r a p that couldn´t fit in my rig on any kind of camping etc trip or long off road touring run. So my ability to maintain the float feature I think is really good. You guys are right however it is the weekend hauling that is going to be where the thing gets loaded down, firewood, mulch, drywall, etc.

On the axle, I have actaully thought about it a little. I would most likely swap it out for one that had the same six bolt pattern as the rims on my 40, had e brakes and was otherwise as close to modern standard as I could get. It would seem to make sense to run the same tires as the 40 making the spare tire issue go away on an expo. This trailer idea gets better and better. :hmm:

Where are people sourcing these? I have seen a couple on ebay, now that you guys have me straight on what to look for. Any place else that is a good sourece?

BTW, mods, in my iew this deserves to be a sticky in this sub forum. Great info in this thread for the trailer newby. Just my .02
John
 
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sonny,
I did not know about the floating thing, but makes perfect sense. Now if I can just get the 80 set-up to float. Your avatar looks like you might have experimented with that before???;p

John,
I don't know anything about the M416 axle. I'm sure it's been done, but how :confused:.

But I can verify sonny's point about the ease of dealing with parts on the M101 CDN in general and mods to the FJ bolt pattern specifically.

I didn't put the hubs on our trailer, but they most likely came from Southwest Trailer. They have them and I think you can get what you need to take care of converting for less than $100 IIRC It's as simple as packing wheel bearing to do the switch. The tricky part is dealing with Southwest. They are virtually impossible to get on the phone. I went through Amazon for something I needed before. Totally reliable shipping etc, but getting the order in is the trick.
 
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Soft top bows for these trailers?

Continuing to show trailer noobness:eek: I just saw in another thread in this sub forum two versions of soft tops for these trailers, one flush mounted, i.e., stretched over the top of the basic trailer. The second, stretched over a frame/ bows that appear to be a couple of feet above the top of the trailer. Are these soft tops "OEM"? Are there OEM bows/ soft top frames for them as well? Are there any differences in the bows/ soft top frames for the 101 and the 416? Thanks again for the tolerance of my noobness. I am learning immensely from this thread and I once again suggest to the Cruiser trailer mod gods that they consider stickyness status for this thread.
:cheers:
John
 
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John,
The Canadians had a mil-spec tarp that went with the M101 CDN. They can still be found if you look around. The only thing is that they are all, I presume, old stock. After nearly two decades since production, these may not by "good as new" although I've never had one in my hands and my guesstimate on that may not be good.

The M101 CDN trailers with the low-bowed tarps most likely do that like I did mine -- with PVC pipe.

I have seen a couple of M101 CDN trailers with hoe-made high-bowed tops, but these are all post-service mods AFAIK.

A diagram of the issue tarp w/ grommet locations, as well as pics and diagrams to make the bows are in the Files area at the M101 Yahoo list. It's easy to convert a cheap plastic tarp to fit, so that's what I've done. A couple of pics below of our tarped M101. Pardon the unpainted one and the lack of the bungie cord. The bungie cord is what makes it look and work great with the standard tarp hooks. I've got a pic in another thread that shows it better, but can't find it on my computer right now.

M416s, I think, had some sort of bow and cover that was GI-issue to make it an enclosed trailer like the back of a deuce-and-a-half. At least I've seen them for sale a couple of times on Ebay. If so, I'd expect these to be sort of scarce, due to both age and the fact that I don't recall seeing any pics of the M416 in military service with such bowed tarps.

I have seen a few solid tops for the M416 that indicated they were GI. However, in all case it looked to me like one-offs for a specific purpose, rather than a standard issue item. The strangest one of those looked rather coffin-like, with a truncated pyramid shape. It would sure shed water.

EDIT: Found that other pic. Better angle, even though the bungie is not tightened yet.
TarpRibs.jpg
WideFenders3.jpg
LightsOnPSCornerLow8.jpg
 
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...Turning to 1/4 ton trailers...

The original US M100 1/4 ton was WWII-vintage. Due to the age, they're very collectible -- or just plain too far gone in many cases -- to consider, although you might get lucky and find one in reasonably good shape without being too $$ if you keep looking.

The US M416 is a Cold War/Vietnam War-era 1/4 ton trailer. The last US versions were produced in the 1970s. These can be found in all price ranges and a variety of difficulty of restoration or conversion.

Correction.

The M100 is also a post-WWII trailer. It was made in the early 1950's. I have one, dated 1953. While similar to WWII trailers, there are differences. It is also a "Cold War" trailer, plus Korean War. These have G-number (G747).

The WWII Jeep trailers are the MB-T (Willys) and T3 (Bantam). They had no "M" number, though they were issued a G-number (G-529).

The M416 was also issued a G number (G-857).
 
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John,
The Canadians had a mil-spec tarp that went with the M101 CDN. They can still be found if you look around. The only thing is that they are all, I presume, old stock. After nearly two decades since production, these may not by "good as new" although I've never had one in my hands and my guesstimate on that may not be good.

The M101 CDN trailers with the low-bowed tarps most likely do that like I did mine -- with PVC pipe.

I have seen a couple of M101 CDN trailers with hoe-made high-bowed tops, but these are all post-service mods AFAIK.

A diagram of the issue tarp w/ grommet locations, as well as pics and diagrams to make the bows are in the Files area at the M101 Yahoo list. It's easy to convert a cheap plastic tarp to fit, so that's what I've done. A couple of pics below of our tarped M101. Pardon the unpainted one and the lack of the bungie cord. The bungie cord is what makes it look and work great with the standard tarp hooks. I've got a pic in another thread that shows it better, but can't find it on my computer right now.

M416s, I think, had some sort of bow and cover that was GI-issue to make it an enclosed trailer like the back of a deuce-and-a-half. At least I've seen them for sale a couple of times on Ebay. If so, I'd expect these to be sort of scarce, due to both age and the fact that I don't recall seeing any pics of the M416 in military service with such bowed tarps.

I have seen a few solid tops for the M416 that indicated they were GI. However, in all case it looked to me like one-offs for a specific purpose, rather than a standard issue item. The strangest one of those looked rather coffin-like, with a truncated pyramid shape. It would sure shed water.

EDIT: Found that other pic. Better angle, even though the bungie is not tightened yet.


Thanks. BTW I really like the look of your trailer. If yours is an example of how these can turn out after an overhaul I'm definitely up for this.:bounce:
 
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Thanks. BTW I really like the look of your trailer. If yours is an example of how these can turn out after an overhaul I'm definitely up for this.:bounce:
VC,
One thing not yet mentioned are the fenders. With the hubs converted and wheels with proper Land Cruiser backspacing installed, a great deal of tire is left exposed by the mil fenders. The trailer used a quite narrow tire in comparison to what we generally use.

I had the fenders on the trailer custom made and that cost me close to $500. They're good and solid, and bolt on just like the stock fenders. They're not quite as heavy duty as some I've seen, which sometimes integrate tubing as the fender lip or support, then continue toward the front and rear as supports for can carriers, etc. Done right, these can function as sliders/armor if you plan to do a lot of trailering through tight trails. Kind of overkill for my expedition build, though. However, if I ever do step up to welding myself, I may look into it.

Here's a pic of the completed trailer after it, along with our 80, received new 255/85 R16 BFG MT KM2 tires.
M101side33s.jpg
 
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VC,
One thing not yet mentioned are the fenders. With the hubs converted and wheels with proper Land Cruiser backspacing installed, a great deal of tire is left exposed by the mil fenders. The trailer used a quite narrow tire in comparison to what we generally use.

I had the fenders on the trailer custom made and that cost me close to $500. They're good and solid, and bolt on just like the stock fenders. They're not quite as heavy duty as some I've seen, which sometimes integrate tubing as the fender lip or support, then continue toward the front and rear as supports for can carriers, etc. Done right, these can function as sliders/armor if you plan to do a lot of trailering through tight trails. Kind of overkill for my expedition build, though. However, if I ever do step up to welding myself, I may look into it.

Here's a pic of the completed trailer after it, along with our 80, received new 255/85 R16 BFG MT KM2 tires.


Good tip! They came out really nice.:cheers:
 
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And add to the mix the M716 flat trailer used to carry generators.
 
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The M101 CDN trailers with the low-bowed tarps most likely do that like I did mine -- with PVC pipe.

A diagram of the issue tarp w/ grommet locations, as well as pics and diagrams to make the bows are in the Files area at the M101 Yahoo list. It's easy to convert a cheap plastic tarp to fit, so that's what I've done. A couple of pics below of our tarped M101. Pardon the unpainted one and the lack of the bungie cord. The bungie cord is what makes it look and work great with the standard tarp hooks. I've got a pic in another thread that shows it better, but can't find it on my computer right now.


EDIT: Found that other pic. Better angle, even though the bungie is not tightened yet.

Did you use the same measurements for the top as the one in the files area in M101? If not do you know how long you made the top pipe?
Thanks
 
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TM98,
I made the top or arch pipe 46 1/8" long, which is longer than those instruction said, IIRC. This now seems a little too much, as it put extra strain on a couple of the 45 degree connectors and broke them. I plan on trimming things some when I get back to it.

I think something around 45" would be a good place to start, then trim some more if needed. Just remember you can always make it shorter, but not vice versa, although 1/2" PVC is cheap.:doh:

If you leave the arch pipes unglued, then it's easy to break down and store with the folded tarp until it's needed again. If you store your trailer outside, it's a good idea to cover it with something like this that sheds water, especially over winter. Not sure how much snow this would hold up under, but it's probably 6" or more, depending on how heavy the snow is.
 
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Figured this would be a good link in this thread.

Jeep 1/4 ton Trailer Page. Willys MBT, Bantam T-3, M-100, M-416, K-38


I've owned a M416 for a few years. While the drums can't be changed like that of the CDN M101 that part doesn't bother me since I tow with a 100 series and earlier Land Cruisers which doesn't share the same wheel pattern.

I also just picked up a 9/43 MBT (Willys) 1/4 ton trailer not to be confuses with the T-3 (Bantam) 1/4 ton trailer. The link has a lot of good info on US 1/4 ton trailers.

:cheers:
 

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