Is the Toyota tech right or crazy? Brakes (1 Viewer)

[60 toy ota]

Brakes have been weird in the land cruiser for a long time, we've replaced loss of components and currently there is an oem master and aftermarket booster that are both relatively new. Normal braking situations are fine but If you ask it to stop faster it won't. Feels Kind of like I have no boost as the pedal feels hard and stopping distances are huge. It has gotten worse over time as well. Finally we took it in to mark Miller Toyota, who says that my front wheel bearings are so loose that they can't do more breaking diagnostics till they take care of it.

At first I was about to go off on him for trying to scam me, but I think I can make sense of now. He says "there is less contact area because they want to toe out". The way I see it is that the momentum of the car pushing forward and the wheels wanting to stay put Creates a load that is normally carried by the bearings in order to keep the wheels pointed straight. But if the bearings have play then there's nothing to keep the wheels straight and they will start to toe out until they get stopped by the brake pads against the rotor. The rotor is parallel with the rims, whereas the pads are still pointed straight, making an "N" If you are looking down from the top.

It certainly isn't anything I would have suspected, but it actually does make sense to me. I'm just a little leery because I've never heard of that before, what about anybody on here?

 

[BILT4ME]

Brakes have been weird in the land cruiser for a long time, we've replaced loss of components and currently there is an oem master and aftermarket booster that are both relatively new. Normal braking situations are fine but If you ask it to stop faster it won't. Feels Kind of like I have no boost as the pedal feels hard and stopping distances are huge. It has gotten worse over time as well. Finally we took it in to mark Miller Toyota, who says that my front wheel bearings are so loose that they can't do more breaking diagnostics till they take care of it.

At first I was about to go off on him for trying to scam me, but I think I can make sense of now. He says "there is less contact area because they want to toe out". The way I see it is that the momentum of the car pushing forward and the wheels wanting to stay put Creates a load that is normally carried by the bearings in order to keep the wheels pointed straight. But if the bearings have play then there's nothing to keep the wheels straight and they will start to toe out until they get stopped by the brake pads against the rotor. The rotor is parallel with the rims, whereas the pads are still pointed straight, making an "N" If you are looking down from the top.

It certainly isn't anything I would have suspected, but it actually does make sense to me. I'm just a little leery because I've never heard of that before, what about anybody on here?

Yes, if your front wheel bearings are loose, it will drastically affect your braking performance. Usually it pulls hard one direction first, so it feels squirrelly when braking.

If they repack and adjust your front wheel bearings, ask them to confirm the torque setting at 25 to 30 LB-FT. Nothing less.

Do not accept the answer of "we follow the service manual" because it's wrong and they don't know that answer anyway.

Then ask them what they set the lock nut torque at and that answer is 43 LB-FT.

If they argue, send them here or get a different mechanic.

 

[mudgudgeon]

I agree loose wheel bearings can affect braking.

Have had loose wheel bearings present as a pulsating brake pedal on more than one occasion

 

[White Stripe]

How old is your lspv? Loose wheel bearings can retract the pads more than normal increasing pedal travel.

 

[elhombre]

You said that "we've"replaced lots of the components. Loose wheel bearings are easily felt by jacking up the wheel in the air, grabbing the tire at 12:00 and 6:00 o'clock, and rocking it back and forth. You will hear and feel the clunking back and forth from loose bearings. Especially if they are loose enough to cause braking issues. Check them yourself.

A hard pedal does not sound like a wheel bearing problem. Wheel bearings , as mentioned above will cause the front end to go screwy from side to side when braking, but should not cause a hard pedal. I would address the bearings first if they are indeed that loose, then go from there. If they have been running loose for a long time, there is a real good possibility that the spindles will have groves worn/pounded into them and they will need to be replaced. If this is the case, you are pretty much all the way inside, and should consider rebuilding the entire front end up to the axle seals. But that's OK. You're made of money, Right??

 

[MickeyB]

Not sure I understand the exact problem. So under normal driving like say stop and go traffic there is no problem, but when you ask to stop faster it won’t. Can you expand on this. Such as what speed are you stopping at. How do you know it’s getting worse, ie have actually done tests and measurements.

Here is my take I the braking, could have a small effect on braking that would probably only be noticeable if you were testing braking distances. Outside of the braking issue you should make sure bearings are tight anyway. It’s super easy to check you lift up front and wiggle tire back and fourth checking for play. Plenty of threads on ih8mud that explain how to do this.

Now back to the dealership, for them it’s a really easy money maker and explanation. Guessing this would be around $200.00 for them to fix. No parts needed they could probably do in under an hour and good for them they just tricked you into thinking you could see major gains in braking from the bearings being tighter.

 

[leonard_nemoy]

It's been twelve years but when I lived in B town Mark Miller Toyota was certainly a stealership to stay away from.

 

[MickeyB]

Not sure I understand the exact problem. So under normal driving like say stop and go traffic there is no problem, but when you ask to stop faster it won’t. Can you expand on this. Such as what speed are you stopping at. How do you know it’s getting worse, ie have actually done tests and measurements.

Here is my take I the braking, could have a small effect on braking that would probably only be noticeable if you were testing braking distances. Outside of the braking issue you should make sure bearings are tight anyway. It’s super easy to check you lift up front and wiggle tire back and fourth checking for play. Plenty of threads on ih8mud that explain how to do this.

Now back to the dealership, for them it’s a really easy money maker and explanation. Guessing this would be around $200.00 for them to fix. No parts needed they could probably do in under an hour and good for them they just tricked you into thinking you could see major gains in braking from the bearings being tighter.

One thing I have learned is to avoid going to the dealership at all costs if you can. Most don’t know that much about these fj80 unless there is a lot in the area which most places there’s not and they will charge you a ridiculous amount of money to do small easy things. I can still remember a time I was driving around town, front wheel started making a horrible screeching sound on braking. I was by a Toyota dealership so I thought we’ll let me just have them take look. So yeah they looked alright, bolt came out on caliper and they put a new one in. Total cost was $95.00 for a 10 minute job and the bolt. I begged and pleaded and was like “come on man” you just put a bolt in. So yeah never again.

 

[Heckraiser]

I'd tell the dealership, "Thanks for the help. i'm going to take the truck home and think about it." Checking your wheel bearings is easy. You don't need any mechanical ability (other than the ability to use a jack). If they're loose, you only need worth of mechanical ability, a 54mm socket and a torque wrench to re-tighten them. This would be worth doing just for diagnostic purposes. If the bearings are bad, or problems are worse, research a good independent mechanic in your area who knows land cruisers (you'll still cry at the price, but you'll get better price and service than the dealership), or just study up on MUD and do it yourself. Doing a full front-end rebuild including brakes, axle seals and everything is still only a job.

 

[60 toy ota]

I agree about stealerships, and it's a rare occasion someone else is turning wrenches on my rig.
Expanding on "it's getting worse", no Measurements taken but very clear something is not right and getting worse. it used to be that the rig stopped within the expectations of any normal driver, though not necessarily on a dime. Every once in a while, however, you get the no boost feeling and the petal is hard/ large stopping distances. That is now the rule rather than the exception. It is not dependent on speed but rather the rate of deceleration-- the harder I brake, the more it wants to resist. Little change in stopping distance between light and heavy braking.

Master and booster have been replaced multiple times, new calipers as well. Original lspv and abs.

I was not aware the fsm is wrong about preload torques, thanks @BILT4ME for that info. I redid my front end a few years ago following the fsm and thought it wouldn't need attention this soon, but I guess not if I didn't get three preload right.
I'll believe the service tech that bearings need attention as he was So adamant about it, and the mechanic has apparently been a cruiser nut for decades. But I think that's likely not my only braking issue.

My plan of action is to ask them to adjust the preload so they can continue diagnosis. If the knuckle needs more attention than that I'll do it on my own time, but that should be enough to eliminate the bearings issue at least while they are running diagnostics. Thoughts?

 

[60 toy ota]

Also, the dealership is couple hours from me. I know it's really easy to check the bearings by jacking up the car, but I'm not about to take 5 hours out of my day to do that.

 

[Rwhat]

if they are correct. Be ready to replace the spindles.

 

[elhombre]

I think it is safe to assume the dealership will not pre-load the bearings tight enough. They will only do what the FSM tells them to do. Liability issue.

 

[60 toy ota]

Yes, if your front wheel bearings are loose, it will drastically affect your braking performance. Usually it pulls hard one direction first, so it feels squirrelly when braking.

If they repack and adjust your front wheel bearings, ask them to confirm the torque setting at 25 to 30 LB-FT. Nothing less.

Do not accept the answer of "we follow the service manual" because it's wrong and they don't know that answer anyway.

Then ask them what they set the lock nut torque at and that answer is 43 LB-FT.

If they argue, send them here or get a different mechanic.

I didn't see much of this after searching... so no 10 lbs on a fish scale business, just 25-30 for the inner nut and 43 for the outer? Can you point me in the direction of sources/ justification?

 

[Howard705]

Loose (very) wheel bearings usually push the pistons back partially into the calipers as side forces undulate the rotor around while driving. Then when applying the brakes have a low pedal as you "pump up" and push he pistons back to the caliper and take out the slop- like shoes out of adjustment.

 

[Rifleman]

60 toy ota look up (search for ) threads by mud member Tool R Us, he posted many threads about the correct way, and anount of torque to use to pre load these wheel bearings.​

 

[Heckraiser]

I didn't see much of this after searching... so no 10 lbs on a fish scale business, just 25-30 for the inner nut and 43 for the outer? Can you point me in the direction of sources/ justification?

Because @Tools R Us said so. Pretty much all the justification needed But there are countless threads on using the FSM method and bearings coming loose in short order. Happened to me too.

But here's some reading:

Fixing Front Wheel Bearing Preload

Hey Team, I did my front birf's a couple weeks back, and put the truck on stands this weekend to check for play in the front wheel bearings. With both front wheels still on, and using their weight to try and rock the front hubs on the spindle (not being crazy forceful, but trying to get some...

forum.ih8mud.com

Front bearing preload

So I just finished my front end rebuild and the preload is pissing me off. Did the whole fishscale thing and had it at about 9-ish lbs, Drove the truck around a bit and checked the wheel bearings this morning, they were loose... So I went home, jacked the front end up, and left the tires...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[flintknapper]

Even if a person didn't have a torque wrench....you could still set your wheel bearing pre-load (good enough). You almost can't make them too tight. It's too loose that you want to avoid. Truth be known....hundreds of thousands of vehicles have wheel bearings replaced and tightened down by Indy shops all over the country using nothing more than a 'feel' for some resistance. Trailers, Trucks, Cars, etc....

Sure its 'best' to do it by the 'specs' (when the specs are right) but I can tell you from wrenching on my own vehicles for bit over 50 years, the 'book' isn't always right and there can be a big difference between NEW bearings and USED bearings and races.

BUT one thing DOES hold true: You don't want loose wheel bearings. Too tight and you'll know it quickly (by the heat build up of the hub).

 

[ZackR]

If your wheel bearings have been loose for a long time be prepared to replace them as well as the spindle. Basically this turns into a full steering knuckle service where you also replace the front rotors and seals, etc...

Find a trusted independent mechanic who is familiar with these cruisers and go from there (unless you want to DIY). If it were me I'd go with the DIY route and get everything from @cruiseroutfit.

 

[Box Rocket]

It's been twelve years but when I lived in B town Mark Miller Toyota was certainly a stealership to stay away from.

They have some good techs there but you gotta find them and request them specifically. One of my go-to techs there is no longer there so I haven't had them do any work for my for about a year and half, but there are still a few good Cruiser Tech's there. The shop foreman, Brian is a hard-core Cruiserhead (drives a 1FZ swapped FJ55 IIRC) if you speak to him and ask him to line you up with one of the techs that does a lot of Cruiser work.