Is the 1hd-fte turbocharger ceramic turbine? (1 Viewer)

[GTSSportCoupe]

Can't seem to find this info anywhere. Other versions of the CT20B definitely have a ceramic turbine/shaft (MR2, Celica, etc.). Anyone know about the 1hd-fte version?

Helping a friend look into modifying a CT15B from a VVTI JZX100 (single turbo) to fit a 1HDT. The CT15B definitely has a ceramic turbine/shaft. So far we're looking at using his 1HDT compressor housing that is already modified to fit the Supra 7MGTE compressor (47mm), and buying a 1HDFTE turbine housing to swap on.

Thanks!

 

[Dougal]

Don't think so. It's not an application that is hindered by spool time and stock boost was higher than you would push ceramic.

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

Don't think so. It's not an application that is hindered by spool time and stock boost was higher than you would push ceramic.

You might be right. My little 2LTE CT20A has a steel shaft/turbine, which is unusual compared to the gas applications which are all ceramic (twin-turbo supra etc.).

However I am wondering if anyone has actually confirmed the 1HDFTE one is steel?

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

@mudgudgeon You have a 1HDFTE turbo on your 1HZ, correct? Any idea if the shaft/turbine is steel or ceramic?

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

Here's how you can tell apparently:

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

@Dougal Is there any reason you can think of why a ceramic turbine would be a problem on a diesel? (assuming peak boost is kept to reasonable levels). How do typical diesel EGT's compare to typical gasoline EGT's?

 

[mudgudgeon]

Shaft is steel. Not sure about turbine material. I would have guessed inconel.
Looks the same material as HD-T turbine. But I really don't know.

Gasoline EGT at stoichiometric (ideal AFR) is around 1300 C. Too lean, they run hotter, too rich, cooler. Opposite to diesel.
A well tuned gasser will be close to stoichiometric burn most of the time.

Diesel will only see high EGTs when burning rich under load.

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

Shaft is steel. Not sure about turbine material. I would have guessed inconel.
Looks the same material as HD-T turbine. But I really don't know.

Gasoline EGT at stoichiometric (ideal AFR) is around 1300 C. Too lean, they run hotter, too rich, cooler. Opposite to diesel.
A well tuned gasser will be close to stoichiometric burn most of the time.

Diesel will only see high EGTs when burning rich under load.

Thanks! So diesel exhaust will be cooler than gasoline exhaust - meaning it should be easier on the turbine I would think. Or did you mean to say 1300 Farenheit?

Well, maybe we'll give the ceramic turbine a go. Seems to stand up to the abuse people with the MR2's etc. put it through as long as they don't over boost too much.

 

[mudgudgeon]

Diesel is definitely cooler, even at peak EGTs.

It was part of my logic in being comfortable tuning my HD-T to running EGTs up to 800c when I had it

Gas engines see much higher temps.

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

Diesel is definitely cooler, even at peak EGTs.

It was part of my logic in being comfortable tuning my HD-T to running EGTs up to 800c when I had it

Gas engines see much higher temps.

Cool; thanks!

 

[fitzmooney]

OK. Here is some interesting info on the running of the 6 cylinder turbo'd/intercooled Continental in my Mooney aircraft.
The book says you can run a TIT (turbine inlet temp) continuously up to 1650 F. Allowed to go to 1750 during leaning.
I usually run 1550 at 65% power 50 degrees LOP (lean of peak) all day.
The turbo is still in serviceable condition after over 2000 hours.
Just shows you what these turbos can take safely.
Bear in mind these are air cooled engines and run hotter than water cooled ones.

 

[Dougal]

@Dougal Is there any reason you can think of why a ceramic turbine would be a problem on a diesel? (assuming peak boost is kept to reasonable levels). How do typical diesel EGT's compare to typical gasoline EGT's?

Yes. We run much more boost and higher loading on compressor and turbine wheels than petrol engines.

Leave the fizz-ping parts to the ricers. We need robustness.

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

Yes. We run much more boost and higher loading on compressor and turbine wheels than petrol engines.

Leave the fizz-ping parts to the ricers. We need robustness.

Well, my friend jumped on that turbo already as it was very low km and a good price. Guess at this point we'll give it a go! Looks like there are aftermarket inconel turbine/shafts available worst case.

The compressor is the same as the 1hdfte. It's the turbine part that is ceramic. I guess if the diesel EGT's are lower than gasoline, it's the exhaust manifold pressure that will kill it? I did do some flow calculations for the DOHC 2.5 gas motor it came off vs. the SOHC 4.2 diesel it's going on, and they didn't seem much different.....but then again, I ain't no turbo engineer!

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

Well I discovered something very interesting this evening. I took a very close look at the turbine of a CT12B (from a KZJ78 1KZTE engine). Turns out it's ceramic!! Has identical casting marks to the picture above. I suppose this explains why the CT12B is a little more fragile at the high boost levels. I tried scratching it with a dental pick; not a chance of making any mark at all. In the past I've used the same tool on my CT20A (inconel turbine) and it did make a mark.

Edit: Never mind, I might be wrong. More investigation necessary.

 

[gerg]

Regular turbines dont fail. That's a good reason to avoid ceramic.

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

Regular turbines dont fail. That's a good reason to avoid ceramic.

At OEM/reasonable boost levels ceramic doesn't fail either. Toyota used it in an aweful lot of their vehicles over at least a decade. I'd think if they thought it was crap tech they would have scrapped it early on.

 

[gerg]

True, but these are also not brand new either. Who knows what kind of a life it's had before we get them. If I had the choice I'd personally go with the less probamatic turbine. Do they use them on newer vehicles? Tuff to know I guess unless you dissect them.

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

True, but these are also not brand new either. Who knows what kind of a life it's had before we get them. If I had the choice I'd personally go with the less probamatic turbine. Do they use them on newer vehicles? Tuff to know I guess unless you dissect them.

I would think since the advent of variable geometry turbos they've largely scrapped the ceramic. But can't say for sure.

I guess my friends options were ceramic version 1JZGTE CT15B for ~$250 with under 100,000km, or much harder to find inconel 1HDFTE CT20B for $500-1000 with probably three times as many kms. Compressor/turbine are exactly the same size between the two....

After reading more about this, apparently the 1JZGTE CT15B is the strongest of all the ceramic turbo's in that family (CT20B)....

Well, we'll see what happens. It's R&D. Maybe it'll become a proven affordable turbo upgrade option for other 1HD/1HZ builds. The CT15B's are plentiful and consistently available around $250CAD used.

We are looking at having to buy a 1HDFTE turbine housing though; as the 1JZ one is a little tight and has a strange dump flange.

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

Found an interesting paper by Toyota on development of the ceramic (silicon nitride) turbines (attached). For anyone into tech stuff... @Dougal @gerg

 

[gerg]

Interesting read. It's cool they mention ceramic pre cups in the paper.
Thx
G