Intermittent Stumbling start with video (1 Viewer)

[ariff]

OK LC hive mind I need some help trying to track down what is causing my intermittent stumbling starting. The easiest way to describe it is to just let you watch a video so here is a link:
Hard_Start
This is very random as to when it happens. Sometimes I'll go a month without ever having it happen.. Sometimes it will happen twice a day. It has never left me stranded when doing this. Seems to do it more when it is raining or damp outside. On occasion, it will have a hard time actually starting and I'll stop cranking... wait a few seconds then try again on the second attempt it takes a very long time for it to start.. It cranks and cranks and then sputters to life and runs just fine. I replaced my head gasket a few years back and went through all the wiring. Did all the while you are at it stuff. Cleaned injectors the cheap way myself. Head was rebuilt. I am wondering if something with the cams or valves could be causing this issue? Grasping at straws now.. I have no CEL lights on and the truck runs great.. My gas mileage is not the best around 10mpg in the city and 14mpg on the highway. Here is a list of stuff I have tried to do to fix it:
1. Check the EGR wires (I deleted my EGR valve) Wires look fine no melting or cracking.
2. New Cap, Rotor, and Wires, actually on my second set of wires and it has done it with both sets. My first set were generic wires so I thought that might be the issue. My new ones are A nice set of Standard Motor wires from Rock Auto plug wires
3. New Toyota spark plugs
4. New Evap canister
5. New fuel filter
6. New O2 sensors and moved to the location where the Pair valve was located. Pair valve has been deleted.
7. Checked Cats for clogs they look great. Here is a PIC CATS
8. Checked timing and set to around 4-5 degrees TDC
9. Double checked that the Distributor is installed properly.
9. installed ECU from a 1994 LC
10. New air filter
11. New intake hose
12. Cleaned throttle body
13. All new vacuum lines
14. New fusible link
I am sure there is more stuff I have done but forgot to mention.. Anyhow I am wondering if anyone out there has run into the same problem and figured out what the cause is. It is going on two years with this issue and I have not been successful and figuring out what the heck is causing the issue. Heck it took me months to actually record it in action so I could have video proof LOL.. Thanks everyone!

 

[ppc]

The check engine light is on before cranking which it good. Cranking starts and other lights dim which is normal but then the the CEL starts to flash before it stops cranking. I don't recall ever seeing this in my vehicle. Have you tried retrieving any fault codes immediately when this occurs. I can't see this being caused by any mechanical problems with cams, valves etc. but it has to be something electrical. Coupled with it happening more so rainy or damp conditions, again electrical. There can only be a couple of things that could cause the starter to stop cranking. A bad starter, ignition switch or park/neutral sensor. Have you tried starting in neutral versus park or any other position of the shifter?

 

[LINUS]

Have you greased all the battery connections & doublechecked the ground is good?

I grease all the connectors, body grounds & battery posts myself, and it sounds like it’s almost starved for amps on that cranking, but that’s my $.02

Upside if you grease all the connections, you are way more consistent when you hit deep water or even when you wash the engine compartment.

 

[ariff]

The check engine light is on before cranking which it good. Cranking starts and other lights dim which is normal but then the the CEL starts to flash before it stops cranking. I don't recall ever seeing this in my vehicle. Have you tried retrieving any fault codes immediately when this occurs. I can't see this being caused by any mechanical problems with cams, valves etc. but it has to be something electrical. Coupled with it happening more so rainy or damp conditions, again electrical. There can only be a couple of things that could cause the starter to stop cranking. A bad starter, ignition switch or park/neutral sensor. Have you tried starting in neutral versus park or any other position of the shifter?

Nice catch on the blinking light.. I think you are right I don't recall seeing this behavior when it starts normally.. Next time it happens I'll try to see if I can pull a code. I'll also try starting in Neutral and in gear. I'll let ya know what I find out..

 

[ariff]

Have you greased all the battery connections & doublechecked the ground is good?

I grease all the connectors, body grounds & battery posts myself, and it sounds like it’s almost starved for amps on that cranking, but that’s my $.02

Upside if you grease all the connections, you are way more consistent when you hit deep water or even when you wash the engine compartment.

Yeah battery terminals are clean and greased.. I am going to check my ground points this weekend. I see this in the FSM

CODE	SEE PAGE	GROUND POINTS LOCATION
EA	26	FRONT SIDE OF RIGHT FENDER
EB	26	FRONT SIDE OF LEFT FENDER
EC	26	AIR INTAKE CHAMBER
ID	28	LEFT KICK PANEL
IE	28	RIGHT KICK PANEL
BF	30	UNDER THE CENTER CONSOLE BOX
BG	30	LOWER BACK PANEL CENTER

Assuming these are the ground points I want to check?

 

[ajax1]

When mine did this I did a few things, I don’t recall which fixed it, I changed out the fuel relay and resister , and since you don’t have the egr which I removed along with pair valve I also then removed all the vsv switches and vacuum hoses under the manifold. Hasn’t done it since then.

 

[ariff]

When mine did this I did a few things, I don’t recall which fixed it, I changed out the fuel relay and resister , and since you don’t have the egr which I removed along with pair valve I also then removed all the vsv switches and vacuum hoses under the manifold. Hasn’t done it since then.

Yes when I deleted my EGR and Pair I also removed the corresponding VSV's that operate them.. The only one I have left is the one for the charcoal canister.. I'll look into the fuel relay.

 

[ariff]

FYI truck starts in Neutral and will not start in any gear. So seems like the natural safety switch is working?

 

[LINUS]

EFI relay came to mind, but cranking isn’t a function of fuel, unless it’s got a weird starve issue but that would seem likely to present as stumbling idle & even dying while running.

I’d see what all is happening with power supply to starter & your grounding points. In the “air/spark/gas” - this seems like spark & specifically the power delivered to the starter or the starter itself.

You stated a head rebuild, so maybe you’re missing a simple torque on a power delivery cable - esp if it idles & runs smooth once past the cranking issue.

The fact water makes it worse keeps me coming back to wires & proper torque on like the starter stud/nut & good greased terminals on the battery when you’re trying to get real amp draw to happen.

Any chance you’re missing your battery retainer arm & the battery is loose in the tray - the terminals & posts are clean & damn tight, even good & greased as a bonus?

If the starter isn’t bad, this sounds like 100% a issue in high amp draw spectrum.

 

[LINUS]

Also, can you swap batteries with something else to verify yours is 100% awesome?

That’s a hail Mary as I’d think you’d see it more constantly, but only other part to point at in the “amp draw” world where I’m dropping my chips in “name that issue” -roulette.

 

[ariff]

EFI relay came to mind, but cranking isn’t a function of fuel, unless it’s got a weird starve issue but that would seem likely to present as stumbling idle & even dying while running.

I’d see what all is happening with power supply to starter & your grounding points. In the “air/spark/gas” - this seems like spark & specifically the power delivered to the starter or the starter itself.

You stated a head rebuild, so maybe you’re missing a simple torque on a power delivery cable - esp if it idles & runs smooth once past the cranking issue.

The fact water makes it worse keeps me coming back to wires & proper torque on like the starter stud/nut & good greased terminals on the battery when you’re trying to get real amp draw to happen.

Any chance you’re missing your battery retainer arm & the battery is loose in the tray - the terminals & posts are clean & damn tight, even good & greased as a bonus?

If the starter isn’t bad, this sounds like 100% a issue in high amp draw spectrum.

I am going to look at my grounds this weekend and make sure they are making good contact. Nope battery is locked down nice and tight. Terminals are tight as well and I use that red terminal spray protector on them. I'll give them a once over again when I am checking grounds. I did not fiddle at all with the starter when I did my HG.. I do know it is an aftermarket replacement. Bosch, I believe from what the PO mentioned to me years ago. Thanks for all the ideas keep em coming.. It is giving me new stuff to look into.

 

[LINUS]

I’m tapped out / no chips left to push here.......without standing in front of the rig the last of my “house credit” / loan shark suggestions would be in the ignition switch itself, but being in the column that’s a longshot.

Have you got alot of wear on the column, high miles (see 288K sig) -or by alot of short trips that added up?
Those miles aren’t normally when the column ignition gives up tho.

Longshot - any aftermarket connectors in around the fuseblock or column, esp if a PO did something using Scotchlocks (T-taps are OK, but Scotchlocks were a bad invention IMO).

Any relays in any aftermarket stuff installed - any place a sticking relay could occasionally rob your battery health?

Maybe a load check on that battery, aside from that & the few above, I’m flat tapped without being there with you.

 

[ppc]

FYI truck starts in Neutral and will not start in any gear. So seems like the natural safety switch is working?

Was this tried when the starting problem was present? If not try again when the stating problem occurs. I believe the electrical connector for the neutral start switch is above the starter. You should separate that connector and look for corrosion. There have been posts where a leaking PHH drips on that connector causing the corrosion.

 

[BILT4ME]

Have you ever changed your starter or battery cables?

I'm thinking starter solenoid, battery cables, or ignition switch.

 

[RKTINC]

My FJ80 kind of does that at start up. It is also very intermittent. To me It seems like a cold start issue only . When it is warm it starts fine. I used a can of SeaFoam on a half tank of high octane which I think helped. I need to remove the cold start injector to clean it. Seems like your issue is electrical but it kind of sounds like mine cold start issue. I will watch this thread closely.

 

[Rifleman]

ariff, You'll have to forgive me, but at my age my hearing is not as good as it use to be, so is that backfiring in the exhaust I'm hearing while you're cranking it over in that video?

 

[ariff]

Hey gang..
Super busy this weekend so I have not had time to reply. Thanks for the tips on what to check @LINUS I replaced the ignition sw cylinder, yes the po had an aftermarket security alarm installed and there are many T connections in the driver side kick panel. I have tried to avoid this as it appears to be a huge mess to remove. I don't see any aftermarket relays anywhere.. As for the battery I don't have a battery load tester. I guess I could take it to a parts store and have them test it.
@ppc Yes I am very familiar with the connector bundle you are talking about above the starter. When I had my head off I took the time to go through all these wires and repair the bad\corroded ones.. That does not mean my repairs are not the issue.. I did use new weatherproof connectors when making the repairs. I looked at them this yesterday when changing the oil and they all appear to be nice and connected.
@BILT4ME No I have not replaced my starter cable. It appears to be in decent shape and feels solidly connected. you are the second to mention the ignition switch.. I may need to look into this.. I am sure it is a lot of fun to get to probably stuffed behind the dash somewhere. I'll research it more.
@Rifleman when this first started happening I had the exact same thought you did.. Sounded like a backfiring through the exhaust. Which had me thinking it was a timing issue and then lead to checking for plugged cats causing too much back pressure. I did not find much down that path.

So here is what I accomplished this weekend. I did take the time to go through all the engine compartment grounds, remove them clean them up with a Scotch-Brite pad and applied dielectric grease to them. I also removed the battery cables and gave them the same treatment. This has seemed to help the truck start faster\better so that is positive.
Changed the oil and checked all connectors to the starter and above the starter, they all seem good.. However, on my way to work, I got a check engine light with a code of 52 which is a knock sensor. I may have knocked something loose so I get to dig into that tonight. Thanks again!

 

[BILT4ME]

I had a "no click - no start" situation in the snow last week, on the interstate, with the KS State Troopers there. (I was helping) I shut off the tuck for a moment to unlock my rear gate, and the truck wouldn't restart. I got out and whacked on the starter with a 1/2" drive break-over bar, and it started right up. This is a two-year old O'Reilly's reman starter.

Time for a new Denso..........