Injection Pump upgrade for 3B ?

[iggi]

Has anyone done an Injection Pump upgrade or performance rebuild on their IP for more power?

It is such a common upgrade for other diesels but I've yet to hear of anyone doing that on their 3B.

It's something I've wondered about ever since seeing Randy's F100 with the Isuzu 4BD1T. That thing hauls! AFAIK it's stock internals with a hopped up IP, Intercooler and a big ass turbo.

 

[roscoFJ73]

What exactly does a performance upgrade on a pump involve?

 

[Dougal]

Some Cummins 4BT's come with an A pump which is handed in the same way as the 3B's inline pump. The Cummins pump has 9.5mm plungers (I think) compared to 8.5mm in the 3B pump.

No-one has yet tried it that I'm aware of. I tried to convince Gerg to give it a shot and see what he finds.

 

[roscoFJ73]

So would using a pump off a 14B or 15B do the same? I think they come in inline and rotary

 

[Dougal]

So would using a pump off a 14B or 15B do the same? I think they come in inline and rotary

In Aussie or NZ probably but they'll still be expensive. In the US/Canada it'd be easier to find pixie dust.

4BT A pumps go for a few hundred $. People pull them off to fit P pumps or high flowed VE pumps, which IMO is silly and a consequence of following the herd. Randy got more fuel out of his Isuzu A pump than any VE and most P pumps.

 

[Hulsty]

Fit a 13BT pump, there are many similarities so it would probably fit.

 

[Dougal]

Fit a 13BT pump, there are many similarities so it would probably fit.

Are they easy to find used? You'd have to find someone parting out a 13BT.

 

[Hulsty]

Are they easy to find used? You'd have to find someone parting out a 13BT.

Never looked around, but I doubt they would be, I've been looking for reasonably priced 14BT stuff which I think is more common, cant find anything.

 

[roscoFJ73]

Never looked around, but I doubt they would be, I've been looking for reasonably priced 14BT stuff which I think is more common, cant find anything.

Have you looked at 15B,I think they maybe more common from what Ive seen?

 

[gerg]

An injection pump locally quoted me a grand to shove 10mm plungers into the stock pump. He said it would be very reliable. 10.5mm was the max that he would do and it would be very sensitive to water in the fuel and he didn't recommend it. Of course its on the list now, but the list just gets bigger all the time it seems.

 

[Hulsty]

Have you looked at 15B,I think they maybe more common from what Ive seen?

No, though I would prefer a factory turbo pump, ideally a whole tired engine as I need the timing case and gears too. Its all way waaaay down the list though. Shed first, then other cars to build, house blah blah blah.

 

[cody c]

An injection pump locally quoted me a grand to shove 10mm plungers into the stock pump. He said it would be very reliable. 10.5mm was the max that he would do and it would be very sensitive to water in the fuel and he didn't recommend it. Of course its on the list now, but the list just gets bigger all the time it seems.

what country was the shop at gerg? im not sure where exactly the center of the universe is.

I emailed a local shop (GCL fuel systems) to see what their pricing would be or if they are familiar with the process.

Maybe Ian will build a 4 wheel spinning demon of a 40 one day.

Better link the front and rear end buddy! ;p

EDIT: ANYBODY GO THE PART NUMBER FOR THE STOCK TOYOTA/BOSCH/HINO PUMP AND THE 10MM PLUNGERS?

 

[gerg]

Dynamic Fuel Injection & Turbo in Langley BC. The old guy owns a Cruiser too. 604-533-5600. He did go into great detail that unless I added air (turbo) that this pump work wouldnt help. He talked about that alot. It was anoying. I just nodded and agreed.

 

[roscoFJ73]

Dynamic Fuel Injection & Turbo in Langley BC. The old guy owns a Cruiser too. 604-533-5600. He did go into great detail that unless I added air (turbo) that this pump work wouldnt help. He talked about that alot. It was anoying. I just nodded and agreed.

He is correct.No point adding more fuel unless you have air to help it burn.

 

[Dougal]

He is correct.No point adding more fuel unless you have air to help it burn.

Gerg already has a compound turbocharged 3B. Air isn't his problem.

 

[roscoFJ73]

Gerg already has a compound turbocharged 3B. Air isn't his problem.

His statement contradicts that,but Ill take your word for it

 

[Dougal]

His statement contradicts that,but Ill take your word for it

Sarcasm can be hard to spot on the internet.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/407381-3b-compound-turbo-25psi-boost.html

 

[cody c]

His statement contradicts that,but Ill take your word for it

Sarcasm can be hard to spot on the internet.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/407381-3b-compound-turbo-25psi-boost.html

since you two good friends are on here (see above), can either of you tell me:

in a compound turbo setup, do you want the smaller turbo plumbed closer or further from the exhaust manifold, and do you want the small turbine huffing into the bigger one or vise versa? (and a brief "why" this is the case please?)

Also, it seems with an undersized turbo (the small one in a compound setup) a bypass/wastegate is important to avoid restricting flow to the bigger compressor, can someone confirm this is the case?

Also, for a dual setup on a 3B, what are the ideal junkyard turbos or approximate sizes for compound turbos? i.e., a supra turbo and a VW turbo etc.

I was also thinking about the fuel to air ratio thing relative to the heat created by too much fuel (black smoke). Although propane makes a bit more heat and has some cons to it, Im wondering if in contrast to the black smoke/too much fuel scenario, if you had better or complete combustion with PI if maybe the heat issue would be negligible.

In other words, anyone know someone with a fuel pump turned up and PI who's compared egt's and to what scale the difference is?

 

[gerg]

You can plum a compound set up many ways with very different combos of turbos. It really depends on what you want, much like a single turbo... fast low end response or high power at higher RPMs. Often compounds I have seen that want high pressure outputs for max power are plumed with the large turbo first off the exhaust manifold flowing into the smaller turbo with a large wastegate to maximise the exhaust energy to the large turbo. How much this bennifits I am not sure. It will delay the exhaust to the smaller turbo and increase lag to some degree.

My compound is smaller turbo first with larger second and my turbos are not new or ideally matched by any means. I dont think the stock 3B pump can push enough fuel anyway and a good single turbo with an intercooler would be easier and better suited. I think something in the order of 20lbs boost intercooled is all the stock pump can feed. After my intercooler goes on I will be decreasing my boost to get a little more power until my pump gets worked on (its stock)

All compounds on the compressor side have the large turbo boosting into the smaller one thus "compounding" the charge.

What turbos to use is a total complete freaking mystery and alot is trial and error. In my set up my smaller turbo is larger than I would like (turbine side) while the larger turbo works alright for low boost, but is undersized compressor wise for more flow.

I am aiming to redo my smaller turbo, but that is a ton of work as it requires alot of welding and fitting. Altering the larger is easy as it is all bolt on. I am serously looking into a variable vain system as I think it runs more effecient over a larger range and makes sizing less of a problem compared to standard turbos. I am a little concerned about fouling the vains with a dirt IDI engine.

Maping the engine compressor side is much easier then one would think, but the turbine side has been tuff for me. I will let Dougal speak to this as he is the one I ask when I have questions.

 

[Dougal]

The small turbo isn't as small as it looks. They are comparable size to the single turbo fitted to the same engine. Which is why they have no problem supplying and passing all the gas requirements of the engine.

As the exhaust leaves the small turbo it expands to a lower pressure and this is where it needs the bigger turbo to handle the bigger volume.

There is an easy way to look at it:
The small turbo thinks it's just turbocharging the engine in the normal way but operating at higher atmospheric pressure.
The big turbo thinks it's supplying a bigger engine with a higher air-flow requirement.

It is possible to run a setup with the exhaust through the bigger turbo and into the smaller, but it requires a very complicated control of the valves to not produce a drop in boost and a valley of death in the middle. The upside is you can use a small turbo that is much smaller for very quick response.
The current landrover 3 litre TDV6 runs this system and produces 180kw and 600Nm. It is claimed to produce 500Nm from idle within 500ms of the accelerator being pressed. Having driven one, I believe that claim.
The vehicle I drove was also averaging 8.4 litres/100km (34MPG).