How come I have to blip the throttle to get my 3b to run when cold? (1 Viewer)

[Reinhardtius]

Hi Folks,

I have a 1988 BJ75 with 3b with 70,000km. I just changed the oil and oil filter, using a Toyota OE oil filter and Rotella 5W/40 synthetic.

Before the oil change, I could go outside when the truck had sat overnight, glow the plugs and the truck would start quickly without smoke. Now, when I start the truck cold, I glow the plugs, and I turn the key, it starts to idle, then shuts off. I have to blip the throttle for it to start, and it creates a little cloud of smoke.

It did this smoking and sort-of-tougher-to-start behavior in the spring and winter when it was cooler. I don't know what the oil viscosity/weight was before. Is this behavior normal? What could I check out so that I can get in the truck and start it without nursing the throttle?

Cheers,

Reinhardtius

Here is my oil filter thread: Smaller oil filter for 3B? Is that right?

Here is my oil thread: Oil for 70,000km 3B Engine

And attached is a photo of the truck

 

[OGBeno]

Start here.

Cold Start Video Thread

 

[Reinhardtius]

Start here.

Cold Start Video Thread

Done.

 

[Mookies]

If the EDIC is still hooked up it could have some slop in the adjustment rod in the 'Start' position. Otherwise just go through the process of making sure your plugs are good. A little blip of the throttle is actually the factory startup procedure for the L series motors.

 

[roscoFJ73]

It did this smoking and sort-of-tougher-to-start behavior in the spring and winter when it was cooler. Is this behavior normal?

Yes , normal. The glow system adjusts to the ambient temperature but its not perfect. In Australia, my diesel starts instantly with almost no glow plug time, in winter (15c) , it needs a second or 2 longer.
Diesels wont run perfect until the pistons and combustion chamber are at operating temps. When an engine is old and losing compression , usually one or more cylinders will misfire until warmed up.
The fast idle throttle can be adjusted so it wont stall at start.

 

[BreckenridgeCruiser]

What is your oil pressure looking like when you start? The B has a lot oil pressure cut off circuit to the EDIC and blipping the throttle may be keeping the oil pressure higher that the cut off.

 

[Reinhardtius]

If the EDIC is still hooked up it could have some slop in the adjustment rod in the 'Start' position. Otherwise just go through the process of making sure your plugs are good. A little blip of the throttle is actually the factory startup procedure for the L series motors.

I will check the glow plugs. They were fine midsummer when I checked them with a circuit tester (ground on the bar, probe on the metal part of the glow plug).

Is a blip of the throttle something other 3B owners have to do?

What is your oil pressure looking like when you start? The B has a lot oil pressure cut off circuit to the EDIC and blipping the throttle may be keeping the oil pressure higher that the cut off.

My truck does not have an oil pressure gauge, so I'm afraid that I don't know. This stalling on startup was not a problem before the oil change. Does that mean that my old oil was more or less viscous than what I put in (5W-40)?

 

[dare]

My BJ73 will shut itself off after a couple of seconds if I run a Ryco oil filter. The anti drainback valve in them sucks so it takes longer to bring up oil pressure and the edic shuts it down.

 

[Reinhardtius]

My BJ73 will shut itself off after a couple of seconds if I run a Ryco oil filter. The anti drainback valve in them sucks so it takes longer to bring up oil pressure and the edic shuts it down.

Interesting. Does it stay on as short as my truck does (see video)? This truck has an OEM Toyota filter.

 

[Mookies]

I agree that the oil pressure sending unit should be something you take a look at. The connector is not the most robust.

 

[fitzmooney]

Your problem is, you are not giving the plugs time to heat up. Takes from 5 to 30 seconds, depending on temperature.
Take no notice of the light.
If you have a volt meter, watch it until it flicks up and then hit the starter.
If not listen for the relay to click off and then start it.
Best to hold about 1000rpm until it runs smoothly to stop the oil pressure switch from shutting it down.

 

[BreckenridgeCruiser]

To add to @fitzmooney, keep the oil pressure high enough to keep it running, but that is just treating the symptom. Try a different brand oil filter and see if that helps...

I would also hook up an oil pressure gauge, even temporarily, to see if it's taking your engine too long to build pressure. If it's not, it may not be a good idea to rev it to much while pressure is low...

 

[Reinhardtius]

The plot thickens, folks. I went outside to try to start it just now. Now the truck does not turn over. I glowed, then waited for 10 or so seconds, and the starter turns and turns but no start. I tried shorter and longer combinations but no dice.

What would you check first, and then what after that? I’m thinking glow plugs. It just seems awful illogical that after changing oil and filter, that the plugs, EDIC, or oil pressure sender would fail.

UPDATE to this post on 22nd October 2018: I read in the glow plug thread that because my truck is a superglow system (14V), I do not need to wait any longer after the light is extinguished to start the engine. See here:

 

[tornio]

hi Reinhardius, your 3b does not start fine / right !! every 3b , in good conditions (compression) , if properly "glowed " should start like a rocket !

have you checked if superglow is doing his work ?

test the glow plug one at time , have you disconnected them from the bus-bar to test ?

then you can try to diconnect the edic motor arm but it is safer doing it with a pressure gauge like said

 

[tornio]

The plot thickens, folks. I went outside to try to start it just now. Now the truck does not turn over. I glowed, then waited for 10 or so seconds, and the starter turns and turns but no start. I tried shorter and longer combinations but no dice.

What would you check first, and then what after that? I’m thinking glow plugs. It just seems awful illogical that after changing oil and filter, that the plugs, EDIC, or oil pressure sender would fail.

...mmhhh have you "blip the throttle" during start ?

...maybe a injection pump issue..??? even without glowing the 3b should start ... bad start but it must start...like the video ...
this is my experience...

 

[Reinhardtius]

Having disconnected the bus bar, I can confirm that the glow plugs appear fine. See here:

I also checked the oil level. The dipstick reads right at or slightly above the F mark. Should I drain out some oil? Or should I check that the oil filter has oil in it? I didn't pre-fill the oil filter.

Your problem is, you are not giving the plugs time to heat up. Takes from 5 to 30 seconds, depending on temperature.
Take no notice of the light.
If you have a volt meter, watch it until it flicks up and then hit the starter.
If not listen for the relay to click off and then start it.
Best to hold about 1000rpm until it runs smoothly to stop the oil pressure switch from shutting it down.

I typically can start her as soon as that glow plug light goes off, which is about 3-5 seconds. Now, it does not start even if I wait until I hear the relay click off.

What is your oil pressure looking like when you start? The B has a lot oil pressure cut off circuit to the EDIC and blipping the throttle may be keeping the oil pressure higher that the cut off.

I cannot confirm oil pressure. How can I rig up an oil pressure gauge? I can replace the oil pressure sending unit if required. I am attaching a photo of the EDIC, wondering if there is anything unusual about the arm position (see below)


The 3B maintenance manual suggests several other next steps (see below). Which one would you try first?

 

[dare]

Interesting. Does it stay on as short as my truck does (see video)? This truck has an OEM Toyota filter.

Ah it's about 5 seconds before mine shuts itself down. Mine also only needs to glow for 3-5 seconds before the superglow clicks to the second phase.

So is the EDIC shutting it down or is it a fueling problem? Try popping the EDIC linkage off and see if it runs. Note you wont be able to switch the motor off with the key. If it doesn't run with the edic disconnected we're looking at a fueling problem, if it does run we'll have to figure out what's causing the edic to play up.

 

[Reinhardtius]

Ah it's about 5 seconds before mine shuts itself down. Mine also only needs to glow for 3-5 seconds before the superglow clicks to the second phase.

So is the EDIC shutting it down or is it a fueling problem? Try popping the EDIC linkage off and see if it runs. Note you wont be able to switch the motor off with the key. If it doesn't run with the edic disconnected we're looking at a fueling problem, if it does run we'll have to figure out what's causing the edic to play up.

I'll do this, but I am getting a sense from others that an oil pressure gauge is essential here. Anyone got a recommendation, and where can I plug that up to get a reading? And, what kind of oil pressure should I be hitting upon start up, and what should I be doing if it's lower than the target oil pressure?

Thanks for the advice on this front, people. Invaluable suggestions here, and I do appreciate you entertaining my ignorance.

 

[samwise]

You should check your glow plugs with a multimeter, not just for continuity, it tells how to do this on here or the manual.
Do what Dare said above about popping the EDIC arm off, its a little ball joint above where it says Stop, just pop it off then see when you start. Its not uncommon for the EDIC/relay to go bad, lots and lots of threads on here. you can also video the EDIC or have someone watch while you try to start it.
I get about 60psi on cold start up at idle, which I believe is common.
Look up wilson switch as well.

You could also try unplugging the oil pressure low oil pressure sensor on the other side of the engine than the EDIC, dont leave it unplugged but might be part of your problem.

With all the information on here and helpful people youll get it solved!!

 

[Reinhardtius]

You should check your glow plugs with a multimeter, not just for continuity, it tells how to do this on here or the manual.
Do what Dare said above about popping the EDIC arm off, its a little ball joint above where it says Stop, just pop it off then see when you start. Its not uncommon for the EDIC/relay to go bad, lots and lots of threads on here. you can also video the EDIC or have someone watch while you try to start it.
I get about 60psi on cold start up at idle, which I believe is common.
Look up wilson switch as well.

You could also try unplugging the oil pressure low oil pressure sensor on the other side of the engine than the EDIC, dont leave it unplugged but might be part of your problem.

With all the information on here and helpful people youll get it solved!!
View attachment 1812713

Thank you, @samwise! Here is an update riddled with surprises, some delightful, some concerning:

1. I searched for the oil pressure switch, and noticed that it was ALREADY UNPLUGGED (see Photo 1). Its connector, along with three other wires (4x total) were dangling nearby (See photo 2). I cleaned them up but left them dangling. I have no idea which ones go where.
2. I unscrewed the oil filter to see that it had oil in it. Some oozed out, so I refilled it, which required only 8-9 centiliters (3-4 fl oz).
3. I then glowed the plugs and attempted to start it just like I have since I have owned the truck. It turned over for a second then stalled. I immediately glowed them again, and after 5 cranks it turned over again, so I instantly gave it gas and the truck started up!
4. I then went for a road test and warmed up the engine. It warms up normally and runs just fine. No sputtering from fuel starvation, no chicken.
5. I returned home, rigged up my camera, and recorded the EDIC behavior. I can surmise from the video -- but am not certain -- that it appears to be working normally. (see video)
6. I shut off the truck, and turned it back on, and it starts on three cranks, per usual. (see video)

Assumptions:

1. If the oil pressure switch was already unplugged, then the EDIC was not stopping the injection pump due to a low oil pressure signal. Therefore, oil pressure is not the problem.
2. The oil filter has oil and therefore is not contributing to an oil pressure issue.
3. The EDIC operates normally.
4. Because the EDIC operates normally, my hard starts are not due to the EDIC malfunctioning.
5. If the oil pressure switch was unplugged, maybe it should be replaced with a new one anyway.
6. If the EDIC is operating normally and I am still having a hard time starting the engine when cold, then my glow plugs may be failing.
7. Because I am getting plenty of fuel and the truck runs normally once warm, it does not sound like a fuel problem.
8. Given assumptions 1-6, my glow plugs may be the culprit, even though my circuit test of them this morning showed that they were "working".

Questions:

1. Where do all of these connectors go? (see Photo 2)
2. Does the EDIC look like it's working normally? (See video)
3. Can the EDIC exhibit different symptoms once the engine is warm? That is, is it starting up after warm no surprise, and that it could still be faulty?
4. How could I still be suffering a fuel or EDIC problem if the truck runs normally after we are past the cold-start stage?
5. Could my glow plugs actually be failing despite the circuit test results from this morning?

I hope my logic makes sense. If not, please correct me.